Three prominent researchers warn about the current existential threat in the United States
Helmut Schwarz has been reading about what happened to science during the rise of Adolf Hitler, almost a century ago.
The German chemist just received the Frontiers of Knowledge Award from the BBVA Foundation in Spain, due to his contributions to the field of catalysis. For him, there are parallels between the situation in Nazi Germany and Trump’s United States.
“From 1900 to 1932, a third of all Nobel Prizes went to Germany, more than to the U.S. and the U.K. combined,” he tells EL PAÍS. He and two other scientists sat down with EL PAÍS in Bilbao, where they received their awards.
“When Hitler came to power,” he continues, “German science — which led the world — completely disintegrated. But Hitler thought that wouldn’t be a problem,” he continues. Now, Donald Trump’s administration views universities — supposed hotbeds of progressive ideology — as the enemy. He wants to bring them under his control. “In my opinion, the threat isn’t immediate, but it’s very important in the long term,” Schwarz adds.
If you’re too stupid to understand basic science and too proud to admit it, then this is the course of action that you follow.
This has been the longest and most tiring 6 months I’ve ever experienced
Amen, my friend. My spouse keeps telling me to have patience wait for the consequences to hit these clowns. I am just very impatient because I don’t want them to succeed in ruining more things for other people before they get what’s coming to them.
It takes a lot longer to rebuild the town than it took to burn it down. It’s sad that the consequences will take decades to fix if the course is corrected. The US has at this point suffered a lethal dose of radiation, it’s dead, but doesn’t know it quite yet.
Yeah, thats why I’m so impatient for this shit to end NOW. I don’t want to see innocent people have their futures utterly annihilated for years to come. It is so frustrating.
So, literally exactly what was promised. In excruciating detail.
It’s mind boggling how Trumps policy is twisted positively so relentlessly. There’s so much deciphering of “oh he really means this writes an essay.” No, his platform means what it says.
Then people are shocked when it happens!
Nobody took Mein Kampf seriously either.
Are these guys just now figuring this out?
That’s the weirdest part of trying to change the “system of science.” It’s not a system, it’s a process, it’s rigorous, controlled, and peer reviewed.
What Hitler enabled was psychopaths being allowed to practice torture and murder.
When he says “the scientific system,” he’s talking about the institutions we have in the US that educate, employ, conduct research, and/or fund people conducting science. I guess I thought it was obvious he’s not referencing the scientific method
Oh boy I’d love to hear Donald J Trump’s exact thoughts on the scientific method. Every damn thing he’s has to say about it will be absolute gold.
He would just parrot whatever the last person he spoke to said about it.
If he didn’t talk to anyone about it beforehand, he would just talk about how “beautiful” our scientific methods are.
I can give it a try.
We’re going to make America great again. Not great, VERY great. Tremendously great. Great economy, great people, great science.
Science today, it’s not great. All these WOKE theories and hyperthees. That’s not science, that’s wasted money. The scientists today, they take our money. They give it to Harvard, woke Harvard. Spend it on DEI, not SCIENCE. They’re cheating, taking advantage of HARD WORKING Americans. We don’t pay them to ask questions. I KNOW science, that’s NOT science. We tell them to do science, they don’t DO science. They do SOME science, then they do it AGAIN, asking for money. That’s FRAUD.
“My uncle was a scientist at MIT, so I think I know science better than most people. Also, magnets stop working if they get wet.”
Even then, it will just slow research down and set us back. Scientists won’t stop sciencing, and it certainly won’t lead to discoveries they want.
The system they’re describing helps but the people are the ones that matter, not the institutions.
My point is no matter their approach, they will not be able to control the outcome of scientific research. The anti-intellectual fails to understand this. It’s the whole of their being.
In the global long run, yes, you’re right, however the point here is comparing what happened in Nazi Germany to what’s happening now in the US. It’s not about Trump’s America trying to get “the discoveries they want,” it’s about eliminating objectivity and punishing party-line dissenters. They don’t actually care about science at all one way or the other, they care about political control
It won’t set you back. It will permanently and irreparably erode the country’s status and capacity as the pre-eminent hub of scientific innovation and discovery.
World War 2 was 80 years ago. Germany has never regained the lead it once held in chemistry and medical research.
Some of us remember the damage that Bush’s stem cell research ban did and how it set the world back decades for literally no reason whatsoever.
This is going to be so much worse than that.
Even then, it will just slow research down and set us back. Scientists won’t stop sciencing, and it certainly won’t lead to discoveries they want.
Well… that can be more serious that you suggest. Tenure-track faculty need publication-worthy projects and grad students; what if the only funding available is military- and surveillance-oriented? Big universities are going to expect scientists to bring in the money or leave.
That’s… A fair point. That’s probably the best argument I’ve heard so far.
Yeah, that is exactly what they’re trying to do.
Thank you. Finally, a post that reflects what science actually is. I am do sick of people saying “Science says…”
I’m not sure I’ve detected an ideology on the right. They seem to be the most idealess people to have ever been pussyshat.
Their ideology: man is boss. Woman is kitchen. God is science. Money is God.
There are a couple as I see it. You have the religious fundamentalists, I think this is mainly seen in the rules and court cases allowing people to be asses backed by religion. They also are trying to push their ideas nationwide, this is at odds sometimes with the next group. You have the anti-federalists, to them anything the federal government does is evil (especially if its not their rules). This is the ripping out of all the federal departments. They don’t see any good coming from them. Any tax is theft, and any money spent is wasted. (military excluded). The third group is similar to group 2, but they are just anti-regulation. “the free market will figure it out”. Now I don’t think any of these groups have good ideas, but the only reason they are doing what they are doing is because they have ideas and have been working on it for a long time.
Adrian Tchaikovsky is famous for being a prolific science fiction author.
He should also be known for his disturbingly accurate prediction of current events. I keep reading his work then finding the backstories becoming more realistic (and not in a good way).
i have a feeling many scifi writers are pretty good at predicting “current events/future events” through abstract means, you kinda have to be if you want to be a scifi writer. even pre-2000s shows like simpsons, or scifi shows are good indicators.
Which books? Ive read children of time and ruin, loved them. Couldn’t get into shadows of the apt though.
Alien Clay is particularly relevant to this thread.
Also his Terrible Worlds novella set, particularly Firewalkers and Ogres.
Luckily the reality that science attempts to measure doesn’t care about politics and will still exist no matter what he says. What it does mean is that it’ll be discovered in another country and the US will grow more and more isolated
UsA WILL decline like russia does, since russia is known to fund groups like these besides right wing governments.
As someone looking at this from the outside (and also with an interest in space) the saddest part for me personally has been the decline of NASA. I’m doubtful they will ever get back the prestige they once held after all is said and done. I hope I’m wrong but… yeah.
Also while I’m on the topic - I have my doubts about the chances of a long term program successful enough to compete in Europe and that only really leaves one major player left on the field: China. Everyone else will presumably be playing catch-up in the foreseeable future unless something drastic happens.
…and with the probable war we are about to have on our hands it’s even worse. So much for science.
Unfortunatly science is influenced by politics and ideology. Scientific research rely on funding by political and ideological funders
yea, i have read on other platforms that when applying for grants, researchers after to be careful around global warming, like “who is to blame” if they point it as a human cause they are unlikely to get funded(the backers are often billionaire groups who are part of the problem" it would have to be labeled as something abstract to even be considered for funding. but its probably not as hard for every grant though. and i think many people in the PHD field hate doing grant writing , and thats another whole can of worms.
Those of you that paid attention during the evolution and creationism (the round 2) fiasco should be familiar with what’s going on right now.
we were there with intelligent design as well.
I remember during the GWBush years they tried this whole “put the 10 commandments in classrooms” thing, and they quietly pulled them after students started applying those 10 commandments to their teachers, religious leaders, parents, politicians…
They don’t ACTUALLY want these kids learning the Bible because the Bible teaches love and generosity.
they also dont want the bible being applied to them too(the ones in charge). they just want followers.
Psychopaths, sycophants and grifters vying for power were all very prevalent at German universities and research labs at that time. While Engineering still kind of worked - as it was needed for the war machinery and larger industry - even there, with it being “politically neutral”, there was a brain drain - because education allowing for creative thinking was curtailed more broadly, and many talented minds were killed or displaced or even just disfavoured in favour of more nepotistic choices.
And the myth of “German engineering” being fundamentally way above allied engineering during the war still holds in some circles, when mostly it was about different priorities (like - reliability instead of complex engineering, or the proximity fuse instead of rocketry, or radar instead of jet engines), and even in the spaces where Germans had a leg up on their enemies, it was not a fundamental advantage, but a gap that was being bridged even before German scientists were recruited after the war.
As much as history was distorted, the Nazis regime still fancied itself as secular and intellectual, right?
This one seems to view the scientific establishment as a distrusted obstacle, corrupt. There’s not even the pretense. Demolishing “woke” science is the stated point.
Sort of, they also had weird currents of esoteric nonsense, like “Welteislehre” for example. Or Himmlers expeditions to Tibet to find the origins of the master race and evidence of supetnatural abilities. They believed themselves to be secular and anticlerical, but they had their own cult with superstitions.
And they absolutely hated some scientists, relativity was a thorn in their eyes, for example, as “Jewish Science”.
That’s fascinating. I vaguely knew of the superstition angle, but not specifics or the extent.
There goes my afternoon, thanks.
But it does remind me of similar issues in other countries. China, for example (not to single them out) has issues with Eastern Medicine culture conflicting with scientific practices, right?
There are definitely similarities, but China has its own fascinating history there, with a lot of traditional beliefs resurfacing as weird, sanctioned versions of themselves after the cultural revolution had mostly suppressed them. I think on average, the administration in China will probably have less “true believers” and more “stuff like this is necessary to maintain societal peace and harmony” opportunists.
But that is mostly speculation on my part and hard to gauge without looking into peoples’ heads.
I say let them.
Iran was a progressive country once too and look how it is now. Also look at it’s power nowadays. The US wants to be Gillead from the handmaid’s tale? Then go ahead. You’ll be a third world country, unable to feed your own population, within a few years.
Good luck
it was progressive, until the USA backed the shah of iran, which turned into islamic state because of the USA meddling.
Well that’s maybe the cuntiest comment on here so far today.
good, nothing would destroy the USA harder in the long term
Then, a few years from now they will continue to ask why they need to continue to import their scientists from other countries.
Yeah, uhmm… I’m pretty sure - checks notes - yeah, that’s actually the exact opposite of how science works… Thanks for playin, tho!
Worked out really great last time it was tried, didn’t it?
What are you responding to here?
Who are you responding to here? 🤔
So, I guess just in case you’re somehow genuinely unfamiliar with a nested comment structure (which, if so, you’ve got to explain your situation to me, because I honestly can’t think of a probable scenario in which you aren’t, yet it’s 2025 and you also have both a device with internet access and the faculties to reply to me): That was what’s known as a ‘top-level comment’, which means it wasn’t a reply to anything, but instead a comment which can be responded to that gets listed alongside other comments which can also be responded to… Any responses to these - such as your question - get listed beneath (otherwise known as being ‘nested’ under) the original comment or post, where it can be replied to in turn. Collectively, this is known as a ‘comment thread’.
Got it now? 👍
Wow…you must have no problem making friends lol
I’m just really confused by the people responding “that’s not how science works, buddy!” when that’s not at all the point of what Hitler did or the Trump Admin is doing. This entire interview is about funding cuts and political censorship, because the entire point is the Trump Admin exerting political and social control over the scientific establishment in the US. You responding to all this with “that’s not how science works, buddy!” just misses the point.
Science is pretty much by definition supposed to be an objective measurement of the universe, uncolored and unaffected by political or idealogical bias (those would be your “political censorship” and “funding cuts” you mentioned, since you’re apparently having trouble following along…) Since science should be objective, funding based on idealogical grounds or the political censorship of research is anathema to science, as it is by definition not objective. I’m not sure how I can make that any clearer.
I’m not sure what about any of this has to do with me making friends, but let me know how attempting to be condescending and thinking you’re clever while completely missing a simple point works out for you… Cuz I may be autistic, but you’re stupid, and I know which I’d rather be 🤣😂
If you don’t think even the best science has inherent biases, I guess I don’t know what else there is to talk about, even though this is way off track from the conversation.
Do you disagree that Hitler and the Nazi party destroyed the scientific establishment in Germany? It sounds like you think since the concept of science exists independently of nations or politics that governmental control of scientific institutions is inconsequential, which I couldn’t disagree with more.
Calling people stupid and deriding them is also really not cool, fyi
It was more denigrating, than anything, if you wanna go down that road, precious. 😋 And you seemed more than pleased to open the door to insults, so… I dunno, don’t dish it out if you can’t take it, snowflake?
And if it was just an understanding issue, I would’ve simply said you were ignorant, but at this point either you’re genuinely incapable of understanding or being purposefully obtuse. Both are pretty fucking stupid, so…
My friend, what from “What are you responding to here?” is me “opening the door to insults?” The way you spoke to me right out of the gate indicates you probably don’t make friends very easily. That’s an observation, not an insult.
The topic here is the negative impact the Trump Admin is having on science in the US. To say you’ve strayed from it would imply you were ever near it
