Welcome, new industry heads. That’s how it works. China takes a car, picks it apart and builds a cheaper car. That’s what they’ve been doing for decades now.
That’s par for the course, but it’s hilarious that openai “we have to get copyrighted material for free because fuck you” is pulling that defense now.
Yep.
We got angry when Japan did this in the 60s and 70s. I’m going to paste part of the opening from Neal Stephenson’s “Snow Crash.”
Why is the Deliverator so equipped? Because people rely on him. He is a roll model. This is America. People do whatever the fuck they feel like doing, you got a problem with that? Because they have a right to. And because they have guns and no one can fucking stop them. As a result, this country has one of the worst economies in the world. When it gets down to it – talking trade balances here – once we’ve brain-drained all our technology into other countries, once things have evened out, they 're making cars in Bolivia and microwave ovens in Tadzhikistan and selling them here – once our edge in natural resources has been made irrelevant by giant Hong Kong ships and dirigibles that can ship North Dakota all the way to New Zealand for a nickel – once the Invisible Hand has taken all those historical inequities and smeared them out into a broad global layer of what a Pakistani brickmaker would consider to be prosperity – y’know what? There’s only four things we do better than anyone else
- music
- movies
- microcode (software)
- high-speed pizza delivery
The Deliverator used to make software. Still does, sometimes. But if life were a mellow elementary school run by well-meaning education Ph.D.s, the Deliverator ’ s report card would say: “Hiro is so bright and creative but needs to work harder on his cooperation skills.”
I’m kinda reminded of the tale of how the Zilog Z80 processor chip had dozens of little “tricks” built into it. It was being produced in Japan which at the time was famous for their chip production and for copying chip designs. Apparently their little tricks were baffling enough that it delayed the appearance of knock-offs chips by half a year.
looks at all my non-critical electronics…
enshitification smells like Chineseium
That said, I like cheap non-critical crap
I bought my parachute from AliExpress and my reserve chute from Temu.
Would it be better to get your primary from a reputable house and your backup from a discount, or better to get your primary from a discount and your backup from a reputable house?
You rarely use the reserve so I buy the cheapest one I can.
good to know! thanks!
No problem.
With zero investment in innovation. They just wait and steal the work. Easy to undercut American companies when you have no R&D costs.
Forgot that they are only able to do so because the Western capitalists have been trying to snuff out domestic organized labor and thus dumping huge sums of money into Chinese production for half a century.
Yeah. The crying by CEOs during this obviously inevitable “and find out” phase is beyond ludicrous.
If it was just pure copying the best you could hope for is that you match the performance of your competitor. To exceed their performance genuine investment must be made.
Name a Chinese company that produces a product that’s best in the world.
There’s probably some lasers/tech etc but nothing consumer, I would guess.
Solar panels. Huawei had some very good 5g tech before the US sanctioned them (great performance competitive price). Electric cars from various brands like BYD and, a very good case can be made about deepseek r1 (same performance as o1 but using an order of magnitude less power/cost).
Can’t comment on deepseek but Huawei and BYD certainly are inferior to other products in their industries. Probably not for long, but it’s still a happenstance I believe.
Ah yes that’s why America worked super hard to ban them both right.
The commercial drones from DJI are the best in the industry. But also making something that’s almost as performant but for a fraction of the cost requires real innovation as well.
DeepSeek’s training model was innovative. They used multiple large specialized models to train a very small general model. This is a real practical innovation over OpenAI’s one behemoth general purpose model.
True, DJI is a top competitor if not the best drones. Good point
What are you on a about. They produce almost everything you own.
They produce other people’s products, I’m talking Chinese designed, produced etc vehicle, phone, TV, plane, whatever
FoxConn makes iPhones, for one.
I guess, but very often private innovation builds upon a bunch of fundamental research funded by the tax payer. Then the private sector patents it, and brings it to market, overcharges and earns billions. Tough luck if China gets better at this game.
And since China is not a party to any Western IP trade agreements and not bound under international trade law, the only solution is a) diplomacy or b) war
B sounds fun
Ah the Burger King model
Look at its widdle toes! 🥹
Those are clearly fiddle toes, in this case.
That’s lovely.
Well I always thought I knew what the smallest violin looks like!
Would you download a LLM?
Would you hug a face?
Yes, but I don’t have Nvidia hardware to run them
There’s substantial evidence that what DeepSeek did here is they distilled the knowledge out of OpenAI’s models […]
I will explain what this means in a moment, but first: Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahhahahahahahahahahahahaha.
LMFAOOO 😂😂
Gonna cry, technofeudalist lord?
It sounds like they just followed the precedent set by American companies. Maybe don’t steal data and your data won’t get stolen?
a) to expect China not to steal every piece of design they can lay their hands on is foolish and should be part of every tech companies contingency planning, and investor consideration b) given that deepseek seems to have condensed the processing, i can only imagine openai can now use their processes to make the high end chips work just that much more efficiently
To expect any company to not steal is foolish. All development builds on previously proven ideas.
Property is theft, after all.
Yeah, but so can others, their vaunted “we trained for years for billions” moat is gone
Competition is back on the menu, and US VCs don’t like to play that game
It’s their least favorite game right behind Q&A at the SEC.
Does the OpenAI TOS even cover no-take-backsies ?
Finders keepers giveth, finders keepers taketh away
Stealing for me, not for thee or Li
Good, I hope this is how the AI industry dies.
How would this cause it to die?
If something ceases to be profitable, it gets no attention from corporations.
Even something as simple as Deepseek replacing subscription services would tank these corporations who are banking on those fees.
This does the opposite of that. AI was already unprofitable; Deepseek’s massive efficiency improvement ought to improve profitability
Yes and no. American companies have been following OpenAI’s strategy, which is simply scaling up as quickly as possible. From massive data centers swallowing our drinking water for coolant to coal and natural gas power plants to keep it running, it’s been all about pouring as much money and resources as possible in order to scale up to improve their models.
What DeepSeek has done is prove that that’s the wrong way to go about it, and now suddenly, all these companies that have been a massive money sink without any clear path to profitability already have to completely pivot their strategy. Most will probably die before they can. Investors are already selling off their stock.
So AI will become closer to actually being practical/profitable, but I imagine most of the companies who reach that goal won’t be the companies that exist today, and the AI bubble itself will probably collapse from this pivot, if we’re lucky.
Since DeepSeek is also open source, we might even see free competitors that can be run locally pop up that can go toe to toe with the likes of ChatGPT, which would be a real stake through the heart for these massive companies.
I wouldn’t consider DeepSeek open source. A few weeks ago when it would discuss this subject freely with me (it doesn’t anymore), it described keeping some of the most important parts private but the rest being open source. It’s not really open source if it’s only partial because you can’t reproduce it yourself in the same way.
Someone suggested the term ‘open weight’ might be a more honest term. “Open source” has really caught on though.
Deepseek’s massive efficiency improvement ought to improve profitability
Depends on if you’re the AI provider, or the user.
For institutions that had to pay massive fees to use cloud-based AI services, now they might be able to pull it off in house or with far less costs involved. It will save money.
For those selling AI, it’ll get very competitive, and they can’t charge hundreds or thousands of dollars anymore. It will be less profitable or not at all.
AI was already unprofitable
And the silver lining was that all those American companies wasted hundreds of millions, if not, billions on developing the tech. Good for them for wasting all that money.
And good for China for making Deepseek open source as an added “fuck you” to AI capitalists.
For those selling AI, it’ll get very competitive, and they can’t charge hundreds or thousands of dollars anymore. It will be less profitable or not at all.
It is already not at all profitable. Competition will drive prices down, but probably not by as much as the efficiency increase. AI companies could go from having high prices and even higher costs to having low prices and even lower costs. Or they could go under, and be replaced by the competition.
They think gpt is ai…lol
Is there evidence that DeepSeek is an OpenAI distillate other than OpenAI and Co’s protestations?
It’s literally impossible. I tried to explain it here: https://lemmy.world/comment/14763233
But the short version is OpenAI doesn’t even offer access to the data you need for a “distillation,” as the term is used in the LLM community.
Of course there’s some OpenAI data in the base model, but that’s partially because it’s splattered all over the internet now.
Thank you 🙏
“Furious”
Somehow I don’t think that word applies to companies
Hey, companies are people too, as has been proven in a court of law
I’ll believe it when Texas executes one
*an innocent one
Ironic and hypocritical
