I fled Reddit due to the authoritarian mod craziness, but Lemmy.world seems infested with too much Communist craziness. I’m leftist, but communism is idiocy. Is there an instance that leans more democratic socialist but refrains from going off the deep end?
I’m surprised you see a ton of that on lemmy.world, always found that instance rather tame and moderate, at least by lemmy standards. Certainly compared to Hexbear, ml and Lemmygrad. Are you sure those weren’t federated posts from those instances? Anyway, lemm.ee is pretty neutral, lemmy.dbzer0.com leans more anarchist. But you could also just stay on .world and subscribe to communities that align with your views on whatever instance. Unless you have an issue with the moderation on .world specifically, it doesn’t really matter.
I’m not an academically trained scholar regarding left-wing theory, but I’d assume that communists and social democrats are still part of the same group, with one naming themselves after a shorter-term goal-state, and the other naming themselves after a longer-term goal-state.
When we talk about state models such as republic, democracy, autocracy, we’re either describing a current status, or a model we might want to follow or avoid. When we talk about ideologies (conservatism, liberalism, communism, feminism, etc.) they assert specific values and presumptions that might or might not be true or workable. For instance, in the communist ideal, every participant has exactly the same amount of political and material power; influence is perfectly distributed. But we have no idea how a state like that would look, or work, or if we could ever get there.
Every model and every ideology has problems and concessions we don’t understand and have to correct for. The one-person = one-vote thing seems intuitive for democracy, but has terrible side effects, and we’re still sorting out alternative election models that might work better.
All this is to say it’s a really bad idea to treat any one of them as a racehorse or football team or a banner under which to rally and consolidate political power. None of the models or ideals we have are perfect or absolute, and we have to be prepared to adjust them on the fly, especially as we contend with corruption and bad actors who exploit vulnerabilities.
I suspect everyone on the left ultimately seeks a society in which everyone is materially provided for, in which liberties are as extensive as possible while providing for protections and considering human biases towards certain abberant behavior (e.g. drunk driving) in which there are as few social strata as possible and power is as well distributed as possible. The models that accommodate all these, even to partial degrees, are still very fuzzy. (Western civilization has been working on them for only three hundred years or so.)
So we’re at least in the same book, if not on the same page.
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I mean let’s not pretend that there aren’t a lot of psychotic mods on world. It’s gets pretty bad. Hell I got banned from a community for criticizing a New York Post article once. Which I mean shit, how do you not?
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You can go look it up if you want it was like I don’t know 8 months ago. Literally all it was. That’s why it’s stuck in my craw. Didn’t give two shits about the community, I wasn’t a member of it. Just so weird that that Jeff guy banned me for criticizing the New York Post.
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All right I’ll bite, why is that a red flag? This is Lemmy. Not so big that you don’t end up in communities you’re not a part of all the time. Hell I’m not a part of this community.
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Can you show me one community on all of Lemmy in which it’s rule says you cannot criticize the source of a post? Also I don’t know why you think I’m incapable of checking the rules of a community, extremely insulting for no reason whatsoever. If you’re so positive I did something wrong you’re free to prove it. You can go back and look it up.
Do you not see how you’re coming across though? You say you’re not pretending that there isn’t a massive moderation problem on world and here you are tying yourself in knots when people tell you of massive moderation problems on the world.
TBF, I got banned from Reddit after RvW for saying riot police should quit their jobs en masse. Reddit likes to quench any kind of dissent
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lemmy.world
is too communist for you?!?!?
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Guy, you need to get outside more. This person’s reaction matches about 95% of people in the world.
Are you an American?
I am. I’ve traveled internationally some amount. I am sure it varies by country, but the people who have a notable reaction to China/USSR-style communism, from outside the US, have a much stronger hostility to it than the US people I know. Because generally they have more experience with it.
US people don’t like socialism, and think it is “communism.” That part is true, but that wasn’t what I was talking about.
The idea that so many of the people on Lemmy are communists is what led me to think you’re an American. I am too, which is why I know the bias of the American political spectrum starts way more to the right than most of the world. So Americans tend to label ideas more left leaning than they really are.
The communists and tankies are about 90% on the lemmy.ml instance. The rest of Lemmy is left but most as are not communists.
The communists and tankies are about 90% on the lemmy.ml instance. The rest of Lemmy is left but most as are not communists.
Yeah. In case it wasn’t clear, I was talking about being able to encounter overt authoritarian communists at all on lemmy.world, not saying that most of the lemmy.world users themselves are communists. My reaction was very specifically to the word “communist” and not referring to the existence of anarchist / general working-class oriented stuff on Lemmy.
I think most of the lemmy.world users fall pretty much in the sensible region of opinion: Israel is bad, the CCP is bad, Russia’s war in Ukraine is bad. Gay people are ok. Unions are good and the US state is oppressive. Just normal stuff (within my own personal Overton window). Of course a lot of US people would see that as some horrifying communism, but that’s not at all what I was saying, although I can see maybe it came across that way.
Mostly I was saying that I can sympathize with this person coming to lemmy.world and seeing federated content that says “yay China, Tienanmen Square was exaggerated, all this stuff about North Korea is just giving them a bad rap because imperialism” and having this shocked reaction because of it. Whether or not it originates from lemmy.world, it’s weird to see it on lemmy.world or on the modern internet at all. Usually the free exchange of ideas can educate people out of that pretty quickly. I think it’s a symptom of (a) Lemmy having particular features which enable someone to create an echo chamber specifically for proliferating that stuff (b) the world as a whole has gotten more unhinged from reality and so it’s easier for counterfactual stuff to find a solid footing.
Spamming emojis just makes you look ridiculous and like your opinions don’t matter
Replying uselessly to comments you don’t like just to defend a censorship-happy neoliberal hivemind hotbed makes you look like a petty, bored, very gullible person.
I’d call .world default liberal instead of neoliberal personally. A lot of demsoc types.
That’s fair. However, I’d say anyone that is just fine with the deaths of >50,000 innocent people because of some tenuous revenge premise fall closer on the politicial spectrum to Reagan or Bush than anyone I’d even consider labelling a “liberal”.
As someone similar to you, blocking and stuff seems the right approach vs. trying to find a specific instance.
i’d like to hear your take on “communism is idiocy”.
OP didn’t respond so I will take a shot. My understanding is that under communism, the economy has to be planned by the government. Under capitalism, the price of shoes (for example) is usually determined by the demand for shoes and the amount of shoes that can be manufactured. If demand falls, the price falls. If manufacturing capacity increases, the price falls more, etc. This mechanism has feedback loops that make it efficient. In theory, companies never make more shoes than they can sell, because if they do make too many, they can sell the excess by cutting prices. Under communism there is no free market, so the mechanics of supply and demand don’t work. Some communist bureaucrat conducts a study and estimates that the country will need 100k pairs of shoes next quarter. The government then makes those shoes in a state-owned factory. Suppose, though, that it turns out that the country needed more. With no free market, there is no competitor to step in and meet the demand for shoes - now you have a shortage. Similarly, you can have considerable waste if you grow too many apples or whatever. In true communism, there is no price to adjust - you either have an apple voucher or you don’t. Thus there is generally more problems meeting demand efficiently. This is, in fact, exactly what we saw under the Soviet Union - the stores were often stuffed with unwanted items while long lines developed for items that were in high demand. Without any consideration of authoritarianism etc., this is an often-cited reason for the failure of communism.
I am not a political theorist or an economist, so please correct me if I am wrong.
if all humans could plan for the future and wished inherently to make world into better place for others too instead of just themselves communism might work. But as it is, the idea needs some heavy reworking to adjust for human defiencies to be worth even considering. I dont understand how they even came up with something like this and thought its good idea as it is. And naively thought no one would abuse their power or even could manage it all efficiently. Maybe it wasnt idea born out of wanting to make better world but instead just counter reaction to capitalism.
its so annoying, i have this vague idea of something like world without exploitative private property. Like, money would be replaced with actual value of work you have done, you could reasonably use tools and resources without being gatekept by private ownership while still being allowed to have your own things as long as it doesnt cause harm to others. When someone wants more than they can have, its solved instead by working towards improving things for everyone instead of just yourself.
but its just that, a vague idea; mostly fit to taunt me like dangling bottle of water out of reach of someone dying of thirst. And its seeming more and more like wishing one could do magic. It doesnt seem like humans could ever be capable of having a world like that or even want to .
I also believe that the human element might be a problem with communism. One of the ingenious things about capitalism is that it takes a terrible vice - greed - and yokes it for everyone’s benefit. I believe that our system is out of whack, though. The degree of inequality that we tolerate is outrageous - these days, the richest scoop up all the benefits and leave the workers only enough to survive (or less). The fact that 3 men control more wealth than the poorest 175,000,000 other Americans is offensive - especially when you consider that the poorest have no homes or food. It’s even worse when you look beyond American borders.
They’re almost certainly conflating communism with the authoritarian flavor so enjoyed by the tankies of .ml/hex/grad
it’s either that, or attributing anything related to social welfare to communism or at least a slippery slope to communism.
.world is hardly the home of the tankie, what you see might be posts from lemmy.ml
There are two other places known as lemmygrad and hexbear that are outright communist/tankie that you’ll see occasionally brigade when someone posts anything positive about the USA.
This and most others are pretty sane. One that comes to mind for what you’re asking particularly might be https://slrpnk.net/signup who seem kind of left but not Stalin left.
Otherwise there’s the join Lemmy link at the bottom of any given instance to look through.
seconding solarpunk, it’s a beautiful movement in general
i was as naive as OP back in the day, it’s alright bro you’ll get there
Let’s talk about this in a little more detail.
What do you consider going off the deep end? What do you consider leftist? Which ideas do you consider idiocy? What is your idea of a society worth living in?
I personally am open to any ideas that exclude discrimination of identity. For me the tolerance paradoxon applies.
I’m happy to hear your thoughts.
I’m also looking for a place without edgy or crazy people.
For me its:
Democratic: yes
Socialism/social net/sharing/helping: yes
Dictatorial: no
Tankie: no
Undemocratic: no
China or CCCP/URSS worship: no
Soviet whitewashing: no
That’s about it.
Edit: I was looking for a community not an instance (I have my own but I still uses .world as I had some trouble, time to migrate back home I guess :-) ) but thanks for all helpful comments!
I think thats valid. You don’t have to accept or look at everything.
Do you mind sharing what your ideal society looks like? I think a lot of folks share common ideas but have vastly different labels for them.
I’ll go ahead:
I personally want to work. It can be fun. I want to do things I’m actually good at. I want to be able to afford food and housing. I want to know that i wont starve if I become sick or disabled. I want to be able to survive when I’m too old to work regularly. I want my family to be safe no matter what.
I think those are pretty understandable goals. I want to live in a world where this applies to as many people as possible.
Yeah we all have to work (or contribute to society by our possible means) that’s a given I think.
No ultra rich people (but you need to dream, so no communist pay either). UBI that covers basic food & housing. Art and science as the goal of society (after taking care of everyone).
The problem is what to do with all egomaniacs, is there enough benevolent people or will nobody become a dentist if you don’t need to work (that much)? I mean lots of people get up in the morning and spends their whole life working, because of some crazy angry people (don’t believe me? Go work in some big companies). How do we re-train those people, how do we keep an army? Lots and lots of open ended questions here.
See! I fully agree on the social aspects of your ideals. I would like to give my opinion on your points. Please read them as ideas, not a form of diminishing your thoughts.
Yeah we all have to work (or contribute to society by our possible means) that’s a given I think.
Actually, i dont think we do. We produce a lot more than we need (food for 10 billion people) and a lot of crap that only fuels consumerism. Not saying there is an alternative yet but maybe we can agree on “some people definitely need to work for us to survive and thrive.”
No ultra rich people
Fully agree
(but you need to dream, so no communist pay either).
But do we? Or is it just a concept we use to keep the current situation going? Would we not dream if we just had the same?
UBI that covers basic food & housing. Art and science as the goal of society (after taking care of everyone).
100% agree
The problem is what to do with all egomaniacs, is there enough benevolent people or will nobody become a dentist if you don’t need to work (that much)?
would you rather do an easier job that one you have passion and skills for if they were paid the same? I agree that moving trash or working in the sewers should potentially be paid extra. I think currently, education being expensive, doctors are kept scarce. Make it free and watch.
I mean lots of people get up in the morning and spends their whole life working, because of some crazy angry people (don’t believe me? Go work in some big companies).
I have. Huge companies are cancer. Nothing more.
How do we re-train those people, how do we keep an army? Lots and lots of open ended questions here
from the bottom up, as always. We vote as left as possible (those who still can). We demand UBI, free education, free public transport, fair taxes, free healthcare, etc. We build communities (currently underway) to subvert oppressive systems with mutual support groups, etc.
Again, this is just my personal opinion so please disagree wildly if you wish. Just try to stay constructive.
When you say “but do we?” you hit the problem I see almost always in these kind of discussions.
Yes we do need to dream. Other people don’t need to dream. They both exist and that’s just about one thing. Some have to have a house, another hates children, a third loathes bicycles for whatever reason, another hikes but can’t understand why foreign aid isn’t used for urbanism.
It’s all chaos, and one system fit all isn’t going to cut it IMO. It’s also the reason democracy seems so crappy (no one ever really gets anything the politicians promise) but also the only working system.
Rant off/ :-)
So what can we do to improve our democracies?
Block the Lemmy.ml instance and there goes most of those people.
You could replace the socialism with communism and it would be the perfect party.
We need democratic communists. Too many of these so-called “communists” are just bad faith actors who ignore Karl Marx’s teachings, worship dictatorships and play dirty.
Democratic Socialists are the next best option at the moment.
Isn’t communism based on revolution though? (PS. It’s not I who downvoted you, quite childish I think to do so).
Revolution can come in many forms taxing the rich, siding with the workers in court, ending the exploitative businesses practices, starting up more crown corporations, making all elections completely publicly funded, legislating a path for businesses to be owned by the workers while using the independent courts to facilitate this, directing the transfer of wealth to the everyday people, increasing the funding for CBC.
I love everything you say (I don’t know what CBC is though) but the communist revolution is not that, it’s a bloodbath where workers take the power. Does it have to be a bloodbath? It seems so in a communist uprising because the power in place will not budge otherwise.
So I’m much more on your line, but without calling it the name communism.
That’s .ml
Try just joining a local domain which is ostensibly apolitical, then find communities that meet your needs
It’s called “Bluesky” lol
If the de facto gatekeepers of the genocidal liberal death cult status quo on the fediverse aren’t liberal enough for you, I think you’d feel right at home at https://shitlib.cuck/
Username checks out
You should use Hexbear. There aren’t any communists there. Just posers who think communism means supporting dictatorships.
