Back in the day, I might say something out of tone in some subreddit, get the comment flagged, discuss it with a mod, and either agree to edit it or get it removed. No problem.
Then Reddit started banning reactionary subs, subs started using bots to ban people for even commenting on other blacklisted subs, subs started abusing automod to ban people left and right, even quoting someone to criticize them started counting as using the same “forbidden words”, conversations with mods to clear stuff up pretty much disappeared, application of modern ToS retroactively to 10 year old content became a thing… until I got permabanned from the whole site after trying to recur a ban, with zero human interaction. Some months later, while already banned sitewide, they also banned me from some more subs.
Recently Reddit revealed a “hidden karma” feature to let automod pre-moderate potentially disruptive users.
Issues with the communities may have lessened, but there is definitely no longer the ability to say goofy, wild, or unpopular stuff… or in some cases, even to criticize them. There also have been an unknown number of “collateral damage” bans, that Reddit doesn’t care about anymore.
imo if reddit couldn’t survive “purging literally its worst elements, which included some of the most vehement bigotry and abhorrent content outside of 4chan” it probably doesn’t deserve to survive
I see it as a cautionary tale about relying too much on automated mod tools to deal with an overwhelming userbase. People make mistakes, simple tools make more.
The only time I got banned for bigoted stuff, was precisely for quoting someone’s n-word and calling them out on it. Automod didn’t care about the context, no human did either. Also got banned for getting carried away and making a joke in a “no jokes” (zero tolerance) sub. Several years following the rules didn’t grant me even a second chance. Then was the funny time when someone made me a mod of a something-CCP sub, and automatically several other subs banned me.
There is a lot more going on Reddit than what meets the eye, and they like to keep it out of sight.
The only time I got banned for bigoted stuff, was precisely for quoting someone’s n-word and calling them out on it. Automod didn’t care about the context, no human did either.
It sounds like the right call was made (as long as both you and the OP were banned). As a white person, there is no reason for you to use the n-word. In that situation simply changing it to “n-word” is the very least that could have been done
I’m not really sure how that provides and example of stuff going on in the background that someone wants to keep out of sight.
The thing is I did not “use” it, just quoted their whole message. In hindsight, maybe I should have changed it, but I still find it a flaw to not take context into account.
It provides an example of context-less rules blindly applied by a machine, with no public accountability of what happened, much less of the now gone context.
There are many better ways of handling those cases, like flagging the comment with a content warning, maybe replacing the offensive words, or locking it for moderation, instead of disappearing everything. I didn’t have half a chance of fixing things, had to use reveddit to just guess what I might’ve done wrong.
The thing is, no context would have made it OK. You may have just been quoting someone, but you still used the word in the quote. Quotes are not some uneditable thing, so it was your choice to leave it in. Zero tolerance for hate means repeating the hateful thing is also not tolerated, and that, IMO, is a good thing and the perfect use of an auto-mod.
The other examples are a bit nebulous, and I have no doubt that communities on reddit have esoteric moderation guidelines, but this particular example seems pretty cut and dry.
Quotes are not uneditable… but neither are comments.
Wouldn’t be the first time when the parent gets edited to make a reply look like nonsense, so I got used to quoting as a countermeasure. Then they unlocked comment editing even in 10 year old “archived” posts 🤦 (BTW, the same applies to Lemmy: should I quote you? will you edit what you said?.. tomorrow, or in 10 years?.. maybe I’ll risk it, this time)
“Zero tolerance” becomes a problem when the system requires you to quote, but then some months or years later decides to change the rules and applies them retroactively. I still wouldn’t mind if they just flagged, hid, or removed the comment, it’s the “go on a treasure hunt to find out why you got banned” that I find insulting (kind of like the “wrong login”… /jk, you got banned. Wonder if it’s been fixed in Lemmy already, I know of some sites that haven’t for the last 15 years).
Quotes are not uneditable… but neither are comments.
You kinda get into an ouroborus of who has fewer edits, and honestly I don’t know how to solve for that, but I do know that if you had substituted “n-word” for the slur it would look exactly the same if the OP edited the comment after the fact. Quoting the slur doesn’t mitigate that.
“Zero tolerance” becomes a problem when the system requires you to quote, but then some months or years later decides to change the rules and applies them retroactively. I
Any policy becomes a problem at that point. It becomes less of a policy and more of a guideline
I’d argue that it still broke Reddit.
Back in the day, I might say something out of tone in some subreddit, get the comment flagged, discuss it with a mod, and either agree to edit it or get it removed. No problem.
Then Reddit started banning reactionary subs, subs started using bots to ban people for even commenting on other blacklisted subs, subs started abusing automod to ban people left and right, even quoting someone to criticize them started counting as using the same “forbidden words”, conversations with mods to clear stuff up pretty much disappeared, application of modern ToS retroactively to 10 year old content became a thing… until I got permabanned from the whole site after trying to recur a ban, with zero human interaction. Some months later, while already banned sitewide, they also banned me from some more subs.
Recently Reddit revealed a “hidden karma” feature to let automod pre-moderate potentially disruptive users.
Issues with the communities may have lessened, but there is definitely no longer the ability to say goofy, wild, or unpopular stuff… or in some cases, even to criticize them. There also have been an unknown number of “collateral damage” bans, that Reddit doesn’t care about anymore.
imo if reddit couldn’t survive “purging literally its worst elements, which included some of the most vehement bigotry and abhorrent content outside of 4chan” it probably doesn’t deserve to survive
I see it as a cautionary tale about relying too much on automated mod tools to deal with an overwhelming userbase. People make mistakes, simple tools make more.
@jarfil @alyaza i have said plenty of wild stuff and haven’t been banned from any subs? None of it has been bigoted tho
The only time I got banned for bigoted stuff, was precisely for quoting someone’s n-word and calling them out on it. Automod didn’t care about the context, no human did either. Also got banned for getting carried away and making a joke in a “no jokes” (zero tolerance) sub. Several years following the rules didn’t grant me even a second chance. Then was the funny time when someone made me a mod of a something-CCP sub, and automatically several other subs banned me.
There is a lot more going on Reddit than what meets the eye, and they like to keep it out of sight.
It sounds like the right call was made (as long as both you and the OP were banned). As a white person, there is no reason for you to use the n-word. In that situation simply changing it to “n-word” is the very least that could have been done
I’m not really sure how that provides and example of stuff going on in the background that someone wants to keep out of sight.
The thing is I did not “use” it, just quoted their whole message. In hindsight, maybe I should have changed it, but I still find it a flaw to not take context into account.
It provides an example of context-less rules blindly applied by a machine, with no public accountability of what happened, much less of the now gone context.
There are many better ways of handling those cases, like flagging the comment with a content warning, maybe replacing the offensive words, or locking it for moderation, instead of disappearing everything. I didn’t have half a chance of fixing things, had to use reveddit to just guess what I might’ve done wrong.
The thing is, no context would have made it OK. You may have just been quoting someone, but you still used the word in the quote. Quotes are not some uneditable thing, so it was your choice to leave it in. Zero tolerance for hate means repeating the hateful thing is also not tolerated, and that, IMO, is a good thing and the perfect use of an auto-mod.
The other examples are a bit nebulous, and I have no doubt that communities on reddit have esoteric moderation guidelines, but this particular example seems pretty cut and dry.
Quotes are not uneditable… but neither are comments.
Wouldn’t be the first time when the parent gets edited to make a reply look like nonsense, so I got used to quoting as a countermeasure. Then they unlocked comment editing even in 10 year old “archived” posts 🤦 (BTW, the same applies to Lemmy: should I quote you? will you edit what you said?.. tomorrow, or in 10 years?.. maybe I’ll risk it, this time)
“Zero tolerance” becomes a problem when the system requires you to quote, but then some months or years later decides to change the rules and applies them retroactively. I still wouldn’t mind if they just flagged, hid, or removed the comment, it’s the “go on a treasure hunt to find out why you got banned” that I find insulting (kind of like the “wrong login”… /jk, you got banned. Wonder if it’s been fixed in Lemmy already, I know of some sites that haven’t for the last 15 years).
You kinda get into an ouroborus of who has fewer edits, and honestly I don’t know how to solve for that, but I do know that if you had substituted “n-word” for the slur it would look exactly the same if the OP edited the comment after the fact. Quoting the slur doesn’t mitigate that.
Any policy becomes a problem at that point. It becomes less of a policy and more of a guideline