The Biden administration is asking Congress to provide more than $13 billion in emergency defense aid to Ukraine and an additional $8 billion for humanitarian support through the end of the year.
By involving the same country that was responsible for setting up the scenario where it was invaded, and having that country also not go out of its way to cancel the peace talks that were going on, because they threatened its imperialist hegemony in the region.
The same way anyone starts negotiating with anyone: open a dialogue and exchange demands, and then work to make concessions and compromises. They won’t do that, though, because then the infinite money spigot from the US will shut off because America doesn’t want this war to ever end.
Countries aren’t people but they’re made up of them. It wouldn’t take nuclear weapons to annihilate your household.
Russia has invaded Ukraine’s home and tried to lay claim. Now you’re suggesting they give up what was taken from them to satisfy your desire for peace.
The analogy the other person used is fair. In another analogy Russia is nothing more than a bully. We’ve long moved past the time where the advice we give is to just give the bully your money so they don’t beat you up and take it anyway.
The thing with nukes is that it’s suicide, and they know it. So they just use the threat of it to get whatever they want, in the hopes that the people in charge are like you and will just flop over to their demands whenever they dangle the threat.
I doubt Ukraine will demand anything less than Russia pulling out of previous held lands. Russia will doubtless demand all lands it currently occupies (and maybe even ones it claims but does not occupy). Russia’s demand could be cast as peace, though really it involves giving a massive portion of Ukraine to Russia. And if you’re thinking that might be temporary… well, just ask Finland, which lost 9% of its territory to a peace agreement in the Winter War after the Soviet Union invaded them.
They’d each have their own demands, and then negotiations would be finding a middle ground between “Ukraine gets everything it wants” and “Russia gets everything it wants”
Why should Ukraine have to make any conversations at all? Russia invaded and took land and lives, and you think Ukraine should just give up some of that, just cuz?
Russia is contractually obligated to shoot itself in the head right now, according to a treaty they signed declaring they are bound to Ukraine’s defense should an armed force invade it. I’m not really sure what Russia plans to bring to the table when they have broken every promise they have made and stolen from Ukraine.
You’re asking Ukraine to barter with the armed robber who claims ownership of your house.
Yes because they cannot win on the battlefield and have lost an enormous amount of lives. Just because Russia is adversary to the US does not mean we should send 100,000’s of young people to the grave. (Meanwhile safe over in the states we wave Ukrainian flags and call them heroes as we leave them dead or mangled)
So yes reaching a compromise even if Russia was the aggressor is in the best interest of the people left in Ukraine.
Would you rather use our weaponry and intelligence and money to prolong this war for 10 years … just to have the same outcome but 20x the number of casualties?
Sorry for the assumption but my comment still stands in terms of what is a realistic beneficial outcome for Ukraine at this point? Clearly China, India (probably others) are helping Russia keep its ammo stocks and munitions filled.
Other than a negotiated settlement we can have either world war 3 with NATO intervening … or we can just drag this out for 5-10 years at an enormous cost and literally 100,000’s of dead Ukrainians.
Yes. That’s literally how peace negotiations work. The alternative, winning the war, precludes the necessity of peace negotiations. All negotiations in the history of negotiations are negotiations between aggressor and agressee.
Oh yeah that worked so well for them in
1997 and 2014. Did people forget that peace negotiations have happened before and russia has broken the agreement every time?
Why would Ukraine or anyone for that matter take anything the russian federation says as not a lie?
Also I think that in this case it would be stupid for Ukraine to allow russia any ability to regroup.
If someone came into your country and started to rape, kill and kidnap your people would you roll over and give them whatever they wanted to stop doing that?
Maybe we should break into their home and see if they want to start peace negotiations. Because nobody calls the police when that happens. Give us half your stuff and we will leave.
Oh yeah cuz Putin has just seemed so open to peace, dipshit… it’s not like it hasn’t been tried about countless times. He doesn’t want peace, he just wants everything handed to him with zero consequence
I’d prefer peace negotiations.
How do you see those going?
Probably not great after Zelensky made negotiations illegal
https://archive.today/20221004154445/https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/zelenskiy-decree-rules-out-ukraine-talks-with-putin-impossible-2022-10-04/
I don’t see them going, because the US is against peace negotiations lol
How does Ukraine start negotiating with a country that has invaded theirs?
Probably the same way that’s been done for centuries? Armistice, followed by a peace treaty?
Removed by mod
Ukraine violated both Minsk agreements
Many wars have ended with one side accepting a surrender to a country they hate ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Like the deal they already had as part of Ukraine giving up its nukes, that Putin ignored to invade this time?
By involving the same country that was responsible for setting up the scenario where it was invaded, and having that country also not go out of its way to cancel the peace talks that were going on, because they threatened its imperialist hegemony in the region.
Which is?
That vatnik is a troll, astroturfing for the Russian government, or an idiot. Whatever it is, really not worth engaging.
First time I’ve heard that term.
I like it.
I contrast to your username, which I greatly dislike <3
The same way anyone starts negotiating with anyone: open a dialogue and exchange demands, and then work to make concessions and compromises. They won’t do that, though, because then the infinite money spigot from the US will shut off because America doesn’t want this war to ever end.
You tell me where you live, I’ll break into your house and steal half your stuff.
Instead of fighting back or calling the police, we can negotiate so I can have half your stuff. Sound good?
I dunno, do you have nuclear weapons that could cause the apocalypse?
Countries aren’t people. The scale the work on is much greater.
Oh okay, so if I held enough people hostage I can have your stuff? Good to know…good to know…
Literally yes.
You’ve got an important word there. Scale.
Countries aren’t people but they’re made up of them. It wouldn’t take nuclear weapons to annihilate your household.
Russia has invaded Ukraine’s home and tried to lay claim. Now you’re suggesting they give up what was taken from them to satisfy your desire for peace.
The analogy the other person used is fair. In another analogy Russia is nothing more than a bully. We’ve long moved past the time where the advice we give is to just give the bully your money so they don’t beat you up and take it anyway.
There is no such thing as a society, only individuals and families. Very true Maggie!
No, countries are qualitatively different from simply “lots of people”
Bullies also don’t have nuclear weapons.
Stop comparing people to countries. The scale makes it so absurd, because nuclear weapons could end the god damn world.
The thing with nukes is that it’s suicide, and they know it. So they just use the threat of it to get whatever they want, in the hopes that the people in charge are like you and will just flop over to their demands whenever they dangle the threat.
Do you actually still think Russia is a 100% rational actor?
I doubt Ukraine will demand anything less than Russia pulling out of previous held lands. Russia will doubtless demand all lands it currently occupies (and maybe even ones it claims but does not occupy). Russia’s demand could be cast as peace, though really it involves giving a massive portion of Ukraine to Russia. And if you’re thinking that might be temporary… well, just ask Finland, which lost 9% of its territory to a peace agreement in the Winter War after the Soviet Union invaded them.
You don’t have to guess. They did publish just those demands. https://kyivindependent.com/zelensky-ukraines-peace-plan-can-help-end-other-wars/
I doubt Ukraine will demand anything, losers don’t get to decide anything.
NATO has been given the opportunity to negotiate with Minsk 1/2 and the peace talks back in April 2022, now they’ll reap what they’ve sown.
They’d each have their own demands, and then negotiations would be finding a middle ground between “Ukraine gets everything it wants” and “Russia gets everything it wants”
Why should Ukraine have to make any conversations at all? Russia invaded and took land and lives, and you think Ukraine should just give up some of that, just cuz?
Because otherwise the war never ends.
Are you willing to fight to the last Ukrainian?
Russia is contractually obligated to shoot itself in the head right now, according to a treaty they signed declaring they are bound to Ukraine’s defense should an armed force invade it. I’m not really sure what Russia plans to bring to the table when they have broken every promise they have made and stolen from Ukraine.
You’re asking Ukraine to barter with the armed robber who claims ownership of your house.
They were bound to Ukraine’s defense before it had a coup lol
You think Ukraine should make concessions with the country that invaded them?
Yes because they cannot win on the battlefield and have lost an enormous amount of lives. Just because Russia is adversary to the US does not mean we should send 100,000’s of young people to the grave. (Meanwhile safe over in the states we wave Ukrainian flags and call them heroes as we leave them dead or mangled)
So yes reaching a compromise even if Russia was the aggressor is in the best interest of the people left in Ukraine.
Would you rather use our weaponry and intelligence and money to prolong this war for 10 years … just to have the same outcome but 20x the number of casualties?
I’m not in the states, thanks for assuming that though.
Sorry for the assumption but my comment still stands in terms of what is a realistic beneficial outcome for Ukraine at this point? Clearly China, India (probably others) are helping Russia keep its ammo stocks and munitions filled.
Other than a negotiated settlement we can have either world war 3 with NATO intervening … or we can just drag this out for 5-10 years at an enormous cost and literally 100,000’s of dead Ukrainians.
Yes. That’s literally how peace negotiations work. The alternative, winning the war, precludes the necessity of peace negotiations. All negotiations in the history of negotiations are negotiations between aggressor and agressee.
For the sake of peace, yes, I think they should be willing to make concessions. That’s how negotiations work.
If you refuse to offer anything you aren’t really negotiating. You’re just issuing demands with no exchange.
Oh yeah that worked so well for them in 1997 and 2014. Did people forget that peace negotiations have happened before and russia has broken the agreement every time?
Why would Ukraine or anyone for that matter take anything the russian federation says as not a lie? Also I think that in this case it would be stupid for Ukraine to allow russia any ability to regroup.
NATO broke the 1997 pact when it bombed Yugoslavia in 1999, in violation of the UN Charter.
In 2014 Ukraine’s legitimate government was overthrown by the Euromaidan coup.
Before you screech your revisionist history at me, answer this: are you willing to fight this war until no one is left?
Thing is the only thing Putin wants is the eradication of all Ukraine.
This is a war of annihilation. There are no concessions.
Have a starting point from a man much more intelligent than I: https://youtu.be/mMZYKxgc9TE
(And a video he did 9 years ago: https://youtu.be/A2nklduvThs)
Ridiculous.
If someone came into your country and started to rape, kill and kidnap your people would you roll over and give them whatever they wanted to stop doing that?
Maybe we should break into their home and see if they want to start peace negotiations. Because nobody calls the police when that happens. Give us half your stuff and we will leave.
If the alternative was that they would rape, kill, and kidnap my people for the next 20 years without end?
I’m not willing to fight this war to the last Ukrainian.
Oh yeah cuz Putin has just seemed so open to peace, dipshit… it’s not like it hasn’t been tried about countless times. He doesn’t want peace, he just wants everything handed to him with zero consequence
Ok, and what do you think they would look like exactly? Unless Russia are willing to leave Ukraine, there’s little to talk about.
russia is the only one preventing those
id prefer HIMARS instantly raining down on every last invader without a white flag in the sky. fuck em and the cookers supporting the genocide
Okay you bloodthirsty maniac, and what happens when they retaliate with nuclear weapons?
What nuclear weapons? The fuel got sold for vodka money and the tritium has decayed away to uselessness with Russia giving up on producing more
If that were true, do you think America and its allies could resist total war? They’d just bomb the whole country to ashes.
“By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”