All I’ve seen from Hexbear is class consciousness shit, but everybody else has made it the key point of their online existence to rage on them and do all the garbage they accuse hexbear of. 🤷
Sorry y’all can’t adequately explain why giving every cent of the economy to three people is a good thing.
EDIT: I hear what people are saying but it sounds like, from my limited experience of looking at posts pushed to me from there, that people are using the actions of a few to discredit the beliefs and opinions of everyone they disagree with.
EDIT2: LOL @ the people calling me names then blocking me for disagreeing with them. Thought that was Hexbear did, not you EnLigHtEnEd TyPeS JFC 😂
Yes that’s one of the disgusting ones. So naive and stupid. These hexbear people are degrading Ukrainians like they have no agency for themselves, like they have no wants and motivations as a nation and individuals. With these disgusting statements they are demeaning their fight and their lives. On the other hand there is the caricature America that somehow like an evil shaman, directs others into doing their bidding.
Grotesque.
Per the other reply to you, you might recall when I went over our consensus perspective on Ukraine, how it is motivated by understanding the best possible outcome for Ukrainian lives and contrasting this with the bloodthirsty liberal approach you’ve supported (all dressed up in “concern”).
Is it the “uninformed” and life-devaluing comments you’re referring to?
Your best possible outcome is far bloodier than anything I have in mind. You are just too stupid to see it. You are naive and don’t even see you are shoulder to shoulder with the worst people. Maybe check yourself every now and then.
Im replying in general, I blocked hexbear instance then and had no desire to go through same dumb discussion I have been through before and got the same faulty and illogical arguments. So I dont know what comment you are referring to. I’d be glad to see it if it’s not the same old shit again. And it is, isn’t it?
I love the combination of insults and degrading what I said while suggesting you never even read it (as you announced you were blocking the instance. Incidentally, instance-level blocking wasn’t possible at the time, to my knowledge. That’s part of Lemmy v0.19.x.
But not to worry! I’ll just share what I said with you again. Be sure to explain how it’s uninformed, stupid, and devalues Ukrainian lives! I’m just too big of a dum-dum to figure it out.
whataboutism
It points out the double standards westerners gladly accept in order to favor themselves and disadvantage others. How hollow the rhetoric is. How much rides on accepting propaganda, such as adopting the term “whataboutism” as a way to deflect from valid criticism. That’s an old cold war term you picked up, probably from society in general, but it was propaganda to help ensure Soviet criticisms of double standards could be dismissed by Amerikkkans.
Minsk 2, like we don’t know Russian army went in there with heavy weapons in 2014 and sponsored separatists
The form of this argument is “whataboutism” btw, lol.
But anyways, Russia’s presence in 2014 was at best covert and there’s little evidence. They did provide some supplies. However, why would this contradict any points made about Minsk 2? Anyone familiar with the diplomatic efforts knows that the West was far more brutal and aggressive, targeting civilians in Donbas, and repeatedly avoided diplomatic solutions. The (ignorant) rallying cry seems to be that Russia should have unilaterally done everything even while the West did nothing and even escalated. They didn’t even honor ceasefires.
that by helping the attacked invaded country, the west is somehow making it worse?
“Helping” is doing the heavy lifting in this sentence. If it’s making the situation worse, it isn’t helping, is it? The “it” matters. The “it” from the West is weapons, loans, and auctioning off the country to Western corporate interests. The latter two get called “aid” even though they throw the poorest country in Europe into deep debt and exploitation. The former is weapons, it is direct support for the war, and whether that is “helping” depends on your understanding of where this war is going, what the realistic outcomes are, and what unexplored alternatives exist to propping up the UA military.
The simple version is that UA is fucked. It is not going to win and “reconstruction”, if it ever comes from the West, will come at the price of foreign ownership, low wages, and further stripped social safety nets. Since it will lose, the question is really: how long do you want this to go on? How many Ukeainians do you want dead? I want none. The US government will accept any number so long as it hurts Russia. Do you accept any amount of dead Ukrainians so long as it hurts Russia? I don’t. I want those people alive.
Sending weapons just ensures more and more Ukrainians dying so that the West can “stick it” to Russia. Not so that UA will win. Not so that the outcome is better. So that the outcome is objectively worse, so long as it’s “hurting the right people”. And all the while, the less horrible options are kept off the table, which is to say, diplomacy. Both by simply avoiding or preventing talks as early as March last year, but by ensuring the Western populace is unable to accept diplomacy at this point. This is why they tell you UA is winning, that Russians are subhuman monsters, etc etc. So that you support endless violence and think diplomacy is a bad idea.
This is also all before we get to the MIC, which drives war to fill its pockets. This is another of the real reasons the “helping” is happening: so that Lockheed-Martin can sell more weapons, keep more millions, all while children are plunged back into poverty. They steal from our children and our lives so that more Russians and Ukrainians may die, and there’s always a new target of the violence ready to go for these bloodthirsty monsters.
Had you decided to listen rather than throw a tantrum, you might have learned these things.
So what you have is the same things all over again? Why are you doubling down on your own stupidity?
Whataboutism is of course not a way to deflect any criticism. It’s a fallacy. Double standard? What are you 5? Of course there is a double standard. Damn, you should get a medal for being last to arrive.
About Minsk 2 is not whataboutism because it refers to the same actual thing. That’s not how it works. There is more than enuguh evidence for Russian army supporting seperatists and going into donbas themselves. You speak of the west a lot like there is an entity called " the west". You are so naive, it shows you no idea at all how diplomacy and international relations with work.
I dont even know where to start explaining it to you, but for sure I don’t have enough time. Let me just point out the faults in your reasonings:
Ukraine is fighting for itself. There is no evil west there. They are fighting am occupying army. They would do it either way, if they got the help from anyone or not. They are just doing it far better with better weapons. If they didn’t have them they would still fight. They might totally be occupied, then they would fight like partisans and do terrorist actions. That is the situation. That is the alternative. Not some happy little world you imagine.
America sure like Russia being trashed with their old discontinued weapons they would have to pay lots of money to dispose otherwise. America spends hundreds of billions of dollars every year just for Russia on their military budget. Basically their whole military budget was there because of Russia. Now they are being trashed for peanuts. That’s the biggest strategic win America had in decades. But thinking that this is all the is is also naive. Because America is not one child person that feels one emotion. Diplomats are thinking about what happens after the war and it’s a very difficult situation to defeat Russia in a way that doesn’t create more problems later.
And Russia is losing, there is no doubt about it. That’s not from some main stream media that you hate so much, you would rather listen to Moscow media. That’s coming from war analysts, economists. That’s coming from the change in tone of Russian propagandists. That’s coming from Putin asking north freaking Korea for help
The world is chaos and most of the time things happen for the most banal reasons. Like a lunatic that finds a reason to invade another country in a minority that lives there, like the sudeten Germans.
Sometimes when you want to see if you are on the right sight of history, check who your comrades are. Yours are the extreme right, trump, Orban, kim jon um,…
I wouldnt want to be in that company.
So what you have is the same things all over again? Why are you doubling down on your own stupidity?
You said you forgot it, lol. It seems like you right now and you a few hours ago need to hash it out and determine whether you remember what I said.
Whataboutism is of course not a way to deflect any criticism. It’s a fallacy. Double standard? What are you 5? Of course there is a double standard. Damn, you should get a medal for being last to arrive.
Smartest commenter in the room isn’t familiar with formal vs. informal fallacies and that the latter are part of basically all argumentation.
Do you think being inconsistent and hoodwinked by propaganda is cool and good? You seem to be a really big fan of it and call people names when they aren’t on board.
About Minsk 2 is not whataboutism because it refers to the same actual thing. That’s not how it works.
It’s not the same thing though. It was pointed out that the West didn’t abide by Minsk II and your response was to say what about Russia though. No defense at all of what was accused, just switch focus to what your perceived opponent did. lol.
Sounds like you’re not a fan of a perceived double standard! Fallacy! [Insult]!
There is more than enuguh evidence for Russian army supporting seperatists and going into donbas themselves.
Go find some then! And pay attention to the dates! Also remind yourself of what I said about Russians in Donbas because you seem to have already forgotten it.
You speak of the west a lot like there is an entity called " the west". You are so naive, it shows you no idea at all how diplomacy and international relations with work.
There’s the US hegemony with its European clients that together call themselves “the west”, lol. It’s not like I made it up. I’m using terms most people will understand. Well except you, as you have a compulsion to piss on the carpet.
Ukraine is fighting for itself. There is no evil west there.
Minsk II was negotiated with Western mediators who were themselves primary diplomatic contacts for enforcement and disputes. This is why Putin was talking to Macron and Merkel, lol. I’m sure you’re aware of this, right? You seem exasperated by having to explain the basics to these tankies, right?
One should also understand that Ukraine is a very weak country that was subjected to Western meddling after Euromaidan. While there’s much to be said of it, the easiest way for those for whom this is new information to get a quick handle on it is to listen to the recordings of Nuland. A good listen, especially when it’s for the first time - but that couldn’t be you!
They are fighting am occupying army. They would do it either way, if they got the help from anyone or not.
This paragraph doesn’t address what I said at all. The point is that Ukraine is going to lose and sending more weapons rather than negotiating just stacks Ukrainian bodies (it is premised on falsehoods about Ukraine’s ability to succeed). More people, including Ukrainians, die by propping up the illusion of eventual victory.
The actual reason that lie is spread is because of the real value to the West: attempting to hurt Russia. The position you’re supporting is to trade Ukrainian dead for Russian dead. Bloodthirsty and callous. My position is to end it as soon as possible, i.e. fewer dead, including UA dead.
Now queue the pretzel logic of how escalations and avoiding diplomacy and lies of victory will somehow lead to fewer dead Ukrainians. How is that summer offensive going? Do you like the outcome of virtually zero progress on anything except dead Ukrainians and Russians? I don’t.
They are just doing it far better with better weapons. If they didn’t have them they would still fight.
A Ukraine that wasn’t getting this sham treatment would be negotiating.
They might totally be occupied, then they would fight like partisans and do terrorist actions. That is the situation. That is the alternative. Not some happy little world you imagine.
Oh? Is a happy little world what I described?
America sure like Russia being trashed with their old discontinued weapons they would have to pay lots of money to dispose otherwise. America spends hundreds of billions of dollars every year just for Russia on their military budget. Basically their whole military budget was there because of Russia. Now they are being trashed for peanuts. That’s the biggest strategic win America had in decades.
Oh, so one reason the war is being escalated so that the US can serve its own interests, including cycling weapons inventory? Some might say, the West?
You’re almost there. Don’t forget that the US couples this with new military contracts at home and debt in UA!
But thinking that this is all the is is also naive. Because America is not one child person that feels one emotion. Diplomats are thinking about what happens after the war and it’s a very difficult situation to defeat Russia in a way that doesn’t create more problems later.
Problems for themselves are the only ones they’d care about. There is no limit to the number of Slavic lives they’d sacrifice.
Though I do think I need to remind you that at no point have I suggested the only interest the US has is in sending weapons so it can feed its own MIC. I actually suggested several, even though I have no pretense of having listed an exhaustive set! See if you identify them! Here’s a freebie: in my exact reply on this I pointed out that UA is taking on debts.
And Russia is losing, there is no doubt about it.
Ahahahahahahahahaha
That’s not from some main stream media that you hate so much, you would rather listen to Moscow media.
What time is it in Moscow!? I’m sure this is a hit on Reddit.
That’s coming from war analysts, economists.
People that are classically uninvolved in propaganda narratives and are usuallycorrect. Incidentally, both of those groups have people who think exactly the opposite thing as well. Can you imagine!?
Oh and btw since I know you love talking about fallacies: appeal to authority. I’d loooove to see you figure out how to read and analyze any media or experts at all without using it, lol.
That’s coming from the change in tone of Russian propagandists.
The tone of Russian propagandists hasn’t really changed. It’s almost boring.
That’s coming from Putin asking north freaking Korea for help
Oh? Is that what happened? Please describe it without mentioning the cycling of old weapons stockpiles, since we agree on whose interests that benefits, right?
The world is chaos and most of the time things happen for the most banal reasons. Like a lunatic that finds a reason to invade another country in a minority that lives there, like the sudeten Germans.
You think Nazi expansionism was just one crazy guy’s idea? lol
Love to hear ahistorical Great Man Theory in condescensing lib posts.
Sometimes when you want to see if you are on the right sight of history, check who your comrades are. Yours are the extreme right, trump, Orban, kim jon um,…
How are they my comrades?
So, anyways, you forgot to do the one thing you were asked to do. Tell me how our position is uninformed and devalues Ukrainian life. You did manage to call the ideas stupid but had facile or ignorant points every time, but I’ll give you partial credit for trying.
On that topic, it’s been 20 days and you still haven’t managed to produce an answer; what are the “bizzare arguments” from hexbears, and how have they been “debunked so many times” ?
Oh, maybe read the comments again. It’s the classics :
Ukraine should follow Minsk agreements and all would be well (who cares that Russia didn’t and has broken a dozen other agreements)
it’s all because NATO is growing (lol)
Ukraine was shelling donbas, 14000 dead (yes, it was shelling Russian army in donbas,)
what about America (lame whataboutism)
Russia is there to protect a minority (sure, only that ask their leaders have said otherwise many times and have tried to annex land without a Russian minority)
Ukraine are nazis together with all the west (that’s just extreme right wing projection)
Russia is fighting the whole west (lol, the west didn’t even join in the last year defence budgets in EU and usa barely moved)
…
You have nothing. You just repeat these dumb bizzare debunked claims that are illogical not only false. And it’s become very boring.
And you are trolling me again, aren’t you? Because you can’t be that dumb, can you?
Because you have no idea what war is and how it feels when foreign people come to your country and kill your friends and family. That tends to change peoples minds what is worth fighting for.
I would simply not die for a country thst didn’t appreciate me
Fucking hell. Tell me you have never had real hardships or had to make an impossible but necessary decision in your life.
“Uh, I’m super smart so I would just say no to fighting back if I was being murdered cause I would just stop being murdered. I’m so smart”
You are a child with simple views in a complicated world and that’s the kind of argument you expect from a 12 year old. Which is hexbear in a nutshell.
Have you done so many brain gymnastics that you think you genuinely care about the lives of Ukrainians, or are you aware that you’re lying for political points?
In what way do you actually value Ukrainian lives?
I lost any support for them when I saw them cheering the idea that North Korea should be able to nuke other countries as they all cheered happily “Death to America” with heart emojis like there would be no mass suffering and a complete lack of critical thought of what enabling bullies means for the suffering they are wanting to happen.
They are scared idiots who think appeasing bullies means they will have an easier life and not have to think about how bad things sometimes just have to happen because not everyone is good at heart.
Then they cover it with false claim that they support all people and they only support communism because of how it would support everyone equally.
If you actually care about people you don’t root for suffering and hurting and you definitely don’t wave flags for the bullies just cause it’s an easier answer. Life isn’t so easy and they don’t want to hear it.
Just try to engage in a good-faith conversation with them. They love to shut that shit down with their weird image spams. And the poop. Like literal images of poop, to scare people off, or something. I really don’t get it.
The poop thing has sort of turned into a weird inside joke or virtue signal or something. Sort of like how in the dark ages of the pre-internet Era, nerds would quote LotR and Hitchhiker’s Guide at each other to signal that they are nerds and are therefore of one heart and mind
I think what you are supposed to do is take their shit posts in stride and then shit post back at them. Which I’m not fucking doing.
Sort of like how in the dark ages of the pre-internet Era, nerds would quote LotR and Hitchhiker’s Guide at each other to signal that they are nerds and are therefore of one heart and mind
You really weren’t there or had a very different experience than me. I mean, I guess by “very different,” I mostly mean we actually quoted Monty Python and Star Wars.
I wasn’t there, I just listen when people talk. But the point is the virtue signaling. Most social groups have a shibboleth to signal that they are part of the in-group. It’s sort of the inverse of how cult-like spaces will shun a specific thing that The Evil Outsiders have a casual relationship with, like strict veganism or strictly not using anything which functions similar to profanity
For sure. I agree with you completely and see the connection to hexbear. I was mostly just making a joke that my particular circle had different but still very specific inside jokes.
It was the calls to murder anyone who supports a democratic candidate, with the justification that cops have killed homeless people that turned me off.
The issue with Hexbear is that their users tend to talk in a very demeaning and insulting manner. About half of the popular posts on Hexbear are about making fun of people or communities. Their political views are less of an issue; it’s more about their toxic behaviour.
I mean, that’s most people inside the more mainstream American Overton window of mid right to far right, but nobody bats an eye at that because they’re upholding the status quo. 🤷
Do you see instances who’s main purpose is to represent “people inside the more mainstream American Overton window of mid right to far right” that are even nearly as popular as Hexbear?
If you’re browsing all you frequently see posts from Hexbear users. I’m yet to come across a noticable amount of posts from users from an instance which represent the group you mentioned.
(I couldn’t even name a single instance that fits that description, because if they exist, they’re not nearly as active as Hexbear.)
Toxic people exist on all public instances. But on some they’re more common than on others.
What you’re saying then is it’s OK to stereotype users and bully them for their beliefs and opinions, then use any response other than quiet submission as proof that they’re bad.
Cause all the posts I’ve seen from it is mundane, and the only times I’ve ever seen it’s users act a fool is in response to everyone screeching at them for not adhering to popular opinion (usually with no coherent point other than “tankie bad durr” whatever a tankie is, I’m assuming a slur for leftists.)
Can I punch you then run around telling everyone what a violent cunt you are when you punch me back? Cause that’s what it looks like to me, I’ve been getting alot of wild claims about hexbear but nobody has any point of reference to back it up though.
What you’re saying then is it’s OK to stereotype users and bully them for their beliefs and opinions, then use any response other than quiet submission as proof that they’re bad.
Cause all the posts I’ve seen from it is mundane, and the only times I’ve ever seen it’s users act a fool is in response to everyone screeching at them for not adhering to popular opinion (usually with no coherent point other than “tankie bad durr” whatever a tankie is, I’m assuming a slur for leftists.)
Can I punch you then run around telling everyone what a violent cunt you are when you punch me back? Cause that’s what it looks like to me, I’ve been getting alot of wild claims about hexbear but nobody has any point of reference to back it up though.
This can be interpreted as bad faith if you don’t mention towards whom this behavior is directed at.
It’s easy, you guys direct it at anyone that doesn’t instantly adopt your worldview.
I literally had your people calling me a bigot for saying that being transgender is, ideally, a temporary state.
The implication being they finish transitioning and end up whatever.
I was literally called a bigot for accepting trans people in my own way. Some of ya’ll are fucking rabid, and you absolutely will turn people against you. People that would normally not really care whether or not someone is trans.
Also, yes I call out billionaire worshipping shitlords. I’m just sound enough of mind to understand that communism is far too idealistic to ever actually be accomplished.
There isn’t a single revolution that hasn’t ended with a new upper class taking over from the old one, therefore perpetuating the cycle of inequality. Hexbearians happily ignore this about revolution, effectively behaving as if the human element of greed will just magically evaporate with a new world order. Any system of governance that doesn’t take into account human weakness is a worthless system of governance.
So you gleefully attack anybody trying to do anything about to protect billionaires are their status. 🤷
Just another 2023 “Centrist” who doesn’t want the stigma of the right wing but only ever spends time going after one side because “only the right wing works”
I didn’t think anything bad of you until you HAD to make the clarification. If you have a compelling need to go out of your way and loudly pronounce that you do something - you don’t do it. Nobody’s buying it buddy, you’re just another right winger and nobody cares.
Fair enough then, alas it doesn’t seem Connect app reads markdown.
out of curiosity does this do the quote thing to you? Cause it won’t for me, wasn’t sure if lemmy, my instance, or Connect. I just know MD is supposed to work.
EDIT: oh sure it works when I talk shit about it. Still though, your spoiler didn’t so maybe only some comes through. Idk.
All I’ve seen from Hexbear is class consciousness shit, but everybody else has made it the key point of their online existence to rage on them and do all the garbage they accuse hexbear of. 🤷
Sorry y’all can’t adequately explain why giving every cent of the economy to three people is a good thing.
EDIT: I hear what people are saying but it sounds like, from my limited experience of looking at posts pushed to me from there, that people are using the actions of a few to discredit the beliefs and opinions of everyone they disagree with.
EDIT2: LOL @ the people calling me names then blocking me for disagreeing with them. Thought that was Hexbear did, not you EnLigHtEnEd TyPeS JFC 😂
For me it was the brain dead disgusting coments they make about Ukraine and the war.
The ones about how America will fight Russia to the last Ukrainian?
Yes that’s one of the disgusting ones. So naive and stupid. These hexbear people are degrading Ukrainians like they have no agency for themselves, like they have no wants and motivations as a nation and individuals. With these disgusting statements they are demeaning their fight and their lives. On the other hand there is the caricature America that somehow like an evil shaman, directs others into doing their bidding. Grotesque.
They forgot to mention that the reason Ukrainians don’t have agency is because the West is turning them gay:
https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2023/08/putins-adviser-says-u-s-is-using-brainwashing-to-make-gay-ukrainian-super-soldiers/
Why not discuss your perspective on the international news megathread
Why not die?
You mean our informed comments that actually value the lives of Ukrainians?
natocels stay mad
No I mean your disgusting uninformed coments that don’t value life at all and make fun out of people that are fighting for their lives.
Per the other reply to you, you might recall when I went over our consensus perspective on Ukraine, how it is motivated by understanding the best possible outcome for Ukrainian lives and contrasting this with the bloodthirsty liberal approach you’ve supported (all dressed up in “concern”).
Is it the “uninformed” and life-devaluing comments you’re referring to?
Tell me, what was your reply to that explanation?
Your best possible outcome is far bloodier than anything I have in mind. You are just too stupid to see it. You are naive and don’t even see you are shoulder to shoulder with the worst people. Maybe check yourself every now and then.
Im replying in general, I blocked hexbear instance then and had no desire to go through same dumb discussion I have been through before and got the same faulty and illogical arguments. So I dont know what comment you are referring to. I’d be glad to see it if it’s not the same old shit again. And it is, isn’t it?
I love the combination of insults and degrading what I said while suggesting you never even read it (as you announced you were blocking the instance. Incidentally, instance-level blocking wasn’t possible at the time, to my knowledge. That’s part of Lemmy v0.19.x.
But not to worry! I’ll just share what I said with you again. Be sure to explain how it’s uninformed, stupid, and devalues Ukrainian lives! I’m just too big of a dum-dum to figure it out.
It points out the double standards westerners gladly accept in order to favor themselves and disadvantage others. How hollow the rhetoric is. How much rides on accepting propaganda, such as adopting the term “whataboutism” as a way to deflect from valid criticism. That’s an old cold war term you picked up, probably from society in general, but it was propaganda to help ensure Soviet criticisms of double standards could be dismissed by Amerikkkans.
The form of this argument is “whataboutism” btw, lol.
But anyways, Russia’s presence in 2014 was at best covert and there’s little evidence. They did provide some supplies. However, why would this contradict any points made about Minsk 2? Anyone familiar with the diplomatic efforts knows that the West was far more brutal and aggressive, targeting civilians in Donbas, and repeatedly avoided diplomatic solutions. The (ignorant) rallying cry seems to be that Russia should have unilaterally done everything even while the West did nothing and even escalated. They didn’t even honor ceasefires.
“Helping” is doing the heavy lifting in this sentence. If it’s making the situation worse, it isn’t helping, is it? The “it” matters. The “it” from the West is weapons, loans, and auctioning off the country to Western corporate interests. The latter two get called “aid” even though they throw the poorest country in Europe into deep debt and exploitation. The former is weapons, it is direct support for the war, and whether that is “helping” depends on your understanding of where this war is going, what the realistic outcomes are, and what unexplored alternatives exist to propping up the UA military.
The simple version is that UA is fucked. It is not going to win and “reconstruction”, if it ever comes from the West, will come at the price of foreign ownership, low wages, and further stripped social safety nets. Since it will lose, the question is really: how long do you want this to go on? How many Ukeainians do you want dead? I want none. The US government will accept any number so long as it hurts Russia. Do you accept any amount of dead Ukrainians so long as it hurts Russia? I don’t. I want those people alive.
Sending weapons just ensures more and more Ukrainians dying so that the West can “stick it” to Russia. Not so that UA will win. Not so that the outcome is better. So that the outcome is objectively worse, so long as it’s “hurting the right people”. And all the while, the less horrible options are kept off the table, which is to say, diplomacy. Both by simply avoiding or preventing talks as early as March last year, but by ensuring the Western populace is unable to accept diplomacy at this point. This is why they tell you UA is winning, that Russians are subhuman monsters, etc etc. So that you support endless violence and think diplomacy is a bad idea.
This is also all before we get to the MIC, which drives war to fill its pockets. This is another of the real reasons the “helping” is happening: so that Lockheed-Martin can sell more weapons, keep more millions, all while children are plunged back into poverty. They steal from our children and our lives so that more Russians and Ukrainians may die, and there’s always a new target of the violence ready to go for these bloodthirsty monsters.
Had you decided to listen rather than throw a tantrum, you might have learned these things.
So what you have is the same things all over again? Why are you doubling down on your own stupidity?
Whataboutism is of course not a way to deflect any criticism. It’s a fallacy. Double standard? What are you 5? Of course there is a double standard. Damn, you should get a medal for being last to arrive.
About Minsk 2 is not whataboutism because it refers to the same actual thing. That’s not how it works. There is more than enuguh evidence for Russian army supporting seperatists and going into donbas themselves. You speak of the west a lot like there is an entity called " the west". You are so naive, it shows you no idea at all how diplomacy and international relations with work.
I dont even know where to start explaining it to you, but for sure I don’t have enough time. Let me just point out the faults in your reasonings:
Ukraine is fighting for itself. There is no evil west there. They are fighting am occupying army. They would do it either way, if they got the help from anyone or not. They are just doing it far better with better weapons. If they didn’t have them they would still fight. They might totally be occupied, then they would fight like partisans and do terrorist actions. That is the situation. That is the alternative. Not some happy little world you imagine.
America sure like Russia being trashed with their old discontinued weapons they would have to pay lots of money to dispose otherwise. America spends hundreds of billions of dollars every year just for Russia on their military budget. Basically their whole military budget was there because of Russia. Now they are being trashed for peanuts. That’s the biggest strategic win America had in decades. But thinking that this is all the is is also naive. Because America is not one child person that feels one emotion. Diplomats are thinking about what happens after the war and it’s a very difficult situation to defeat Russia in a way that doesn’t create more problems later. And Russia is losing, there is no doubt about it. That’s not from some main stream media that you hate so much, you would rather listen to Moscow media. That’s coming from war analysts, economists. That’s coming from the change in tone of Russian propagandists. That’s coming from Putin asking north freaking Korea for help
The world is chaos and most of the time things happen for the most banal reasons. Like a lunatic that finds a reason to invade another country in a minority that lives there, like the sudeten Germans.
Sometimes when you want to see if you are on the right sight of history, check who your comrades are. Yours are the extreme right, trump, Orban, kim jon um,… I wouldnt want to be in that company.
You said you forgot it, lol. It seems like you right now and you a few hours ago need to hash it out and determine whether you remember what I said.
Smartest commenter in the room isn’t familiar with formal vs. informal fallacies and that the latter are part of basically all argumentation.
Do you think being inconsistent and hoodwinked by propaganda is cool and good? You seem to be a really big fan of it and call people names when they aren’t on board.
It’s not the same thing though. It was pointed out that the West didn’t abide by Minsk II and your response was to say what about Russia though. No defense at all of what was accused, just switch focus to what your perceived opponent did. lol.
Sounds like you’re not a fan of a perceived double standard! Fallacy! [Insult]!
Go find some then! And pay attention to the dates! Also remind yourself of what I said about Russians in Donbas because you seem to have already forgotten it.
There’s the US hegemony with its European clients that together call themselves “the west”, lol. It’s not like I made it up. I’m using terms most people will understand. Well except you, as you have a compulsion to piss on the carpet.
Minsk II was negotiated with Western mediators who were themselves primary diplomatic contacts for enforcement and disputes. This is why Putin was talking to Macron and Merkel, lol. I’m sure you’re aware of this, right? You seem exasperated by having to explain the basics to these tankies, right?
One should also understand that Ukraine is a very weak country that was subjected to Western meddling after Euromaidan. While there’s much to be said of it, the easiest way for those for whom this is new information to get a quick handle on it is to listen to the recordings of Nuland. A good listen, especially when it’s for the first time - but that couldn’t be you!
This paragraph doesn’t address what I said at all. The point is that Ukraine is going to lose and sending more weapons rather than negotiating just stacks Ukrainian bodies (it is premised on falsehoods about Ukraine’s ability to succeed). More people, including Ukrainians, die by propping up the illusion of eventual victory.
The actual reason that lie is spread is because of the real value to the West: attempting to hurt Russia. The position you’re supporting is to trade Ukrainian dead for Russian dead. Bloodthirsty and callous. My position is to end it as soon as possible, i.e. fewer dead, including UA dead.
Now queue the pretzel logic of how escalations and avoiding diplomacy and lies of victory will somehow lead to fewer dead Ukrainians. How is that summer offensive going? Do you like the outcome of virtually zero progress on anything except dead Ukrainians and Russians? I don’t.
A Ukraine that wasn’t getting this sham treatment would be negotiating.
Oh? Is a happy little world what I described?
Oh, so one reason the war is being escalated so that the US can serve its own interests, including cycling weapons inventory? Some might say, the West?
You’re almost there. Don’t forget that the US couples this with new military contracts at home and debt in UA!
Problems for themselves are the only ones they’d care about. There is no limit to the number of Slavic lives they’d sacrifice.
Though I do think I need to remind you that at no point have I suggested the only interest the US has is in sending weapons so it can feed its own MIC. I actually suggested several, even though I have no pretense of having listed an exhaustive set! See if you identify them! Here’s a freebie: in my exact reply on this I pointed out that UA is taking on debts.
Ahahahahahahahahaha
What time is it in Moscow!? I’m sure this is a hit on Reddit.
People that are classically uninvolved in propaganda narratives and are usuallycorrect. Incidentally, both of those groups have people who think exactly the opposite thing as well. Can you imagine!?
Oh and btw since I know you love talking about fallacies: appeal to authority. I’d loooove to see you figure out how to read and analyze any media or experts at all without using it, lol.
The tone of Russian propagandists hasn’t really changed. It’s almost boring.
Oh? Is that what happened? Please describe it without mentioning the cycling of old weapons stockpiles, since we agree on whose interests that benefits, right?
You think Nazi expansionism was just one crazy guy’s idea? lol
Love to hear ahistorical Great Man Theory in condescensing lib posts.
How are they my comrades?
So, anyways, you forgot to do the one thing you were asked to do. Tell me how our position is uninformed and devalues Ukrainian life. You did manage to call the ideas stupid but had facile or ignorant points every time, but I’ll give you partial credit for trying.
On that topic, it’s been 20 days and you still haven’t managed to produce an answer; what are the “bizzare arguments” from hexbears, and how have they been “debunked so many times” ?
Oh, maybe read the comments again. It’s the classics :
You have nothing. You just repeat these dumb bizzare debunked claims that are illogical not only false. And it’s become very boring.
And you are trolling me again, aren’t you? Because you can’t be that dumb, can you?
If it was me I would simply not die for a country thst didn’t appreciate me. Follow your bliss I guess tho
Because you have no idea what war is and how it feels when foreign people come to your country and kill your friends and family. That tends to change peoples minds what is worth fighting for.
Fucking hell. Tell me you have never had real hardships or had to make an impossible but necessary decision in your life.
You are a child with simple views in a complicated world and that’s the kind of argument you expect from a 12 year old. Which is hexbear in a nutshell.
Have you done so many brain gymnastics that you think you genuinely care about the lives of Ukrainians, or are you aware that you’re lying for political points?
In what way do you actually value Ukrainian lives?
I lost any support for them when I saw them cheering the idea that North Korea should be able to nuke other countries as they all cheered happily “Death to America” with heart emojis like there would be no mass suffering and a complete lack of critical thought of what enabling bullies means for the suffering they are wanting to happen.
They are scared idiots who think appeasing bullies means they will have an easier life and not have to think about how bad things sometimes just have to happen because not everyone is good at heart.
Then they cover it with false claim that they support all people and they only support communism because of how it would support everyone equally.
If you actually care about people you don’t root for suffering and hurting and you definitely don’t wave flags for the bullies just cause it’s an easier answer. Life isn’t so easy and they don’t want to hear it.
Just try to engage in a good-faith conversation with them. They love to shut that shit down with their weird image spams. And the poop. Like literal images of poop, to scare people off, or something. I really don’t get it.
The poop thing has sort of turned into a weird inside joke or virtue signal or something. Sort of like how in the dark ages of the pre-internet Era, nerds would quote LotR and Hitchhiker’s Guide at each other to signal that they are nerds and are therefore of one heart and mind
I think what you are supposed to do is take their shit posts in stride and then shit post back at them. Which I’m not fucking doing.
You really weren’t there or had a very different experience than me. I mean, I guess by “very different,” I mostly mean we actually quoted Monty Python and Star Wars.
Who are you, to be so wise in the ways of science?
Precisely
I wasn’t there, I just listen when people talk. But the point is the virtue signaling. Most social groups have a shibboleth to signal that they are part of the in-group. It’s sort of the inverse of how cult-like spaces will shun a specific thing that The Evil Outsiders have a casual relationship with, like strict veganism or strictly not using anything which functions similar to profanity
For sure. I agree with you completely and see the connection to hexbear. I was mostly just making a joke that my particular circle had different but still very specific inside jokes.
It was the calls to murder anyone who supports a democratic candidate, with the justification that cops have killed homeless people that turned me off.
that and the stupid image emojis
You have sources on that first bit lol? I’m not sure what you’re talking about.
Unless you’re meaning jokes about fascist voters falling down a manhole or something?
Always fun to see accusations with no link and speculate on what actually happened.
Also they called me a nerd
And then… And then they called me a lib and everyone pointed and laughed at me!
So many tantalizingly omitted details!
Death to America
our emojis rule, nerd
The issue with Hexbear is that their users tend to talk in a very demeaning and insulting manner. About half of the popular posts on Hexbear are about making fun of people or communities. Their political views are less of an issue; it’s more about their toxic behaviour.
😔
I mean, that’s most people inside the more mainstream American Overton window of mid right to far right, but nobody bats an eye at that because they’re upholding the status quo. 🤷
Do you see instances who’s main purpose is to represent “people inside the more mainstream American Overton window of mid right to far right” that are even nearly as popular as Hexbear?
If you’re browsing
allyou frequently see posts from Hexbear users. I’m yet to come across a noticable amount of posts from users from an instance which represent the group you mentioned.(I couldn’t even name a single instance that fits that description, because if they exist, they’re not nearly as active as Hexbear.)
Toxic people exist on all public instances. But on some they’re more common than on others.
Yeah, it’s called most of the internet. 🤷
What you’re saying then is it’s OK to stereotype users and bully them for their beliefs and opinions, then use any response other than quiet submission as proof that they’re bad.
Cause all the posts I’ve seen from it is mundane, and the only times I’ve ever seen it’s users act a fool is in response to everyone screeching at them for not adhering to popular opinion (usually with no coherent point other than “tankie bad durr” whatever a tankie is, I’m assuming a slur for leftists.)
Can I punch you then run around telling everyone what a violent cunt you are when you punch me back? Cause that’s what it looks like to me, I’ve been getting alot of wild claims about hexbear but nobody has any point of reference to back it up though.
People should not be bullied, but opinions and believes are not free of criticism.
I mean, just read the comments on this:
https://hexbear.net/post/618701
https://hexbear.net/post/44995
https://hexbear.net/post/375644
Yeah, it’s called most of the internet. 🤷
What you’re saying then is it’s OK to stereotype users and bully them for their beliefs and opinions, then use any response other than quiet submission as proof that they’re bad.
Cause all the posts I’ve seen from it is mundane, and the only times I’ve ever seen it’s users act a fool is in response to everyone screeching at them for not adhering to popular opinion (usually with no coherent point other than “tankie bad durr” whatever a tankie is, I’m assuming a slur for leftists.)
Can I punch you then run around telling everyone what a violent cunt you are when you punch me back? Cause that’s what it looks like to me, I’ve been getting alot of wild claims about hexbear but nobody has any point of reference to back it up though.
This can be interpreted as bad faith if you don’t mention towards whom this behavior is directed at.
Thank you for admitting it’s about the optics (which is not a concern for us)
It’s easy, you guys direct it at anyone that doesn’t instantly adopt your worldview.
I literally had your people calling me a bigot for saying that being transgender is, ideally, a temporary state.
The implication being they finish transitioning and end up whatever.
I was literally called a bigot for accepting trans people in my own way. Some of ya’ll are fucking rabid, and you absolutely will turn people against you. People that would normally not really care whether or not someone is trans.
So are 90% of capitalists but y’all don’t bat an eye at that 🤷
I know you are but what am I?
:O
Also, yes I call out billionaire worshipping shitlords. I’m just sound enough of mind to understand that communism is far too idealistic to ever actually be accomplished.
There isn’t a single revolution that hasn’t ended with a new upper class taking over from the old one, therefore perpetuating the cycle of inequality. Hexbearians happily ignore this about revolution, effectively behaving as if the human element of greed will just magically evaporate with a new world order. Any system of governance that doesn’t take into account human weakness is a worthless system of governance.
So you gleefully attack anybody trying to do anything about to protect billionaires are their status. 🤷
Just another 2023 “Centrist” who doesn’t want the stigma of the right wing but only ever spends time going after one side because “only the right wing works”
I didn’t think anything bad of you until you HAD to make the clarification. If you have a compelling need to go out of your way and loudly pronounce that you do something - you don’t do it. Nobody’s buying it buddy, you’re just another right winger and nobody cares.
Toxic behavior towards normal people who don’t share their flawed beliefs.
And who exactly do we talk in a demeaning and insulting manner to? What is that the people we respond to that way say?
No one who posts this kind of civilty or optics concerns about our behaviour ever mentions that.
If you’re more offended by our responses than the things we push back against you deserve to be offended
Thanks for proving their point.
Nobody deserves to be offended, and the things you push back against isn’t as much of a problem as the way you go about it.
Civility isn’t in Hexbears vocabulary.
I agree! If only slaves thought to ask nicely for their freedom, they would have just been granted it! Civility is indeed the way!
We get that they’re toxic, but most people are. Their genocide denial is far more problematic imo.
Though I have seen them myself and their trolling, vote brigading and harassment is really awful.
You’ve only seen class consciouss shit? I’m very sorry you haven’t seen more of our sick emojis
emoji spam
I do hate these, are they supposed to take up a whole screens worth of blank space each or is that my Connect app being weird about it.
It’s unintended and it’s why I’ve been hesitant to post emojis on other instances. It’s why I used spoiler tags.
They’re not supposed to be so big. They look more normal sized on Hexbear. I’m told some Lemmy devs are working on a fix for it soon.
Fair enough then, alas it doesn’t seem Connect app reads markdown.
EDIT: oh sure it works when I talk shit about it. Still though, your spoiler didn’t so maybe only some comes through. Idk.
You do be havin some fire emojis
They openly deny the Tianamen Square massacre happened.