Someone died because of the Day of Rage. Apologies for my error. But go on, make sure we all know he was a great Catholic. Cause you know, if he’d been Jewish, there would be plenty on the platform making justifications for it.

A Jewish teacher was killed by her student in France today because of Hamas’ call for a “Day of Rage”.

Egypt took Gaza in the '48 war, built camps and put Palestinians (then called Arabs, the word “Palestinian” still most often referred to Jews) in them. Nobody much cared until Israel took the territory in the Six Day War and Egypt refused to take it back after.

Likewise Jordan annexed West Bank, built its camps, put Palestinians in them and held it until '67. Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt all built camps for Palestinians WITHIN their own borders and refused to assimilate them or allow them to become citizens. They used Palestinians as pawns in their quest to eliminate the infidel state. It didn’t work. No one much cared unless the pawns can be used against Israel.

Palestinians who remained in Israel are now citizens with voting rights etc. Israel didn’t chuck them in camps like their neighbours did.

The camps are now cities by the way. But no one calls them that, cause “camps” is better to use against Israel.

Who the fuck said anything about neglecting security and being naive?<

Of course precautions would be taken. Short of going in with significant military protection, it wouldn’t be enough. Hell, going in WITH significant military protection still wouldn’t be enough amongst people who believe in martyrdom and jihad. Israel going in with military protection wouldn’t be seen as a safety measure, it would be seen as provocation. Folks like you would be ranting against Israel for doing so and claiming that the deaths of the construction workers was justified cause, you know, Israel.

You’re the one who’s naive if you hadn’t thought that through.

No. That’s an excuse to avoid being creative and if you’d reflect about it you’d see it. It’s social conditioning saying “we’re the victims, always”.<

I have reflected on this a great deal. My position is considered, informed and grounded in a very unfortunate reality I wish was different. I’ve not said that Israelis are the victims, always. You’ve not understood if you think that. Recognising the agency of Hamas, other militant groups and the infrastructure which supports them in and outside of Gaza is very different.

Don’t be complicit in that.

How little you’ve comprehended if you think that I am.

I don’t have a plan for the future. Hamas and the other militant groups aren’t going to recede any time soon. Quite the opposite now, they will be emboldened by their ‘success’ in brutalising Israelis. Israel can’t attack Gaza hard enough to eliminate the militants. If Israel does less, it will be perceived by militants as a sign of weakness in Israel and continued evidence, not of Israel being strong or any other good quality, but of what the militants forced them to do. If Israel does less, the militants will do more.

It’s an impossible situation. I don’t have an answer. I do know that continuing to blame the entirety of blame and responsibility of Israel doesn’t move us closer to any sort of resolution.

No. You’ve been wrong on so many points, including your assessments of me.

Your blockade comment above shows your lack of understanding of what I’ve written. This week’s atrocities from Hamas are the undeniable evidence of what the blockade had previously prevented. Very different. The blockade only exists because it is necessary to reduce Palestinian militants’ ability to slaughter Israelis. Some of those militants have shown you in undeniable terms how barbarously far they will go. That you were unaware of their intentions before Saturday doesn’t mean they sprang into being recently.

Yeah, you’re continuing to be clouded by emotion. I’ll stand by that.

Peace has never been the goal for Israel, it’s about colonization and genocide. They have no interest in ever living alongside Palestinians<

WRONG.

They’re never going to draw any distinction between Hamas and the people of Palestine<

WRONG.

Israel either needs to leave occupied territory and remove all their settlers from Gaza<

ALL Israeli settlers WERE removed from Gaza in 2005. That’s a really big mistake to make. Can’t say I’m surprised though given how many other errors you’re making here.

This is Israel’s responsibility because, as we see, they have all the true territorial and military power here. Palestinians have none.<

WRONG. Palestinian extremists hold the most important card. And before them Arab extremists and the armies of Arab nations which refused to recognise the state of Israel. Unilateral withdrawal from Gaza didn’t bring peace. Nothing has. This crap that it’s entirely within Israel’s power ignores this reality. You have the luxury and safety to remain in that ignorance. Israelis don’t.

practically all of the balls that can be played towards de-escalation are in your court… “who is in a better position to end this”<

Hamas and all of the other extremist militant groups have the crucial ball though. They’re the ones who are in the only position to end this. No country alone can make peace when their enemy refuses to. That refusal is the ball that Hamas holds, the ball that Palestinian militants held before Israel existed as a modern state, the ball that Arab militants held when the word “Palestinian” most often referred to Jews.

This crap about Israel holding “all the power”, it’s just not true.

I could rant to you about Fatah corruption but what good would that do.<

It’s something we could agree on, you know. Not sure why you wrote this? Do you think I’m unaware of it or how it contributed to the election of Hamas in 2006? I lose count of how many years into his four year term Abbas is, working on 19 years now I think. We could talk about how much current violence in the West Bank is Hamas trying to undermine Fatah there and gain power for themselves.

“We’re going to donate concrete but because of Hamas we’re going to do the pouring, tell us where you want those houses<

If only it were that simple. Hey, let’s present Hamas with official Israeli workers to kidnap and kill. What could possibly go wrong? 🤦

If only it were that simple holds for the rest of your propositions. If only.

My mistake, I was listing numbers off the top of my head and was admittedly overzealous, as happens in online discourse, and yes it was by multiple orders of magnitude. I will concede on this.<

That was an straightforward bit of overzealotry to demonstrate. You’re far from the only one who does it, it’s VERY common and abetted by a significant disinformation system. You get caught up in emotions, exaggerate - here by 495,000!!! - and use that as if it were justification and substantiation of your arguments. Other people do it too, and you’ll have been persuaded by those exaggerations. The internet makes it worse but it’s been going for longer than Israel has existed as a modern state.

The Gaza strip is the world’s largest open-air prison, due to Israel’s blockade<

How many times do I have to write this before it gets through? The blockade is entirely due to militants (Hamas and all of the other groups, with a collective history going back to the Ottoman Empire) and the terrorism they bring to rid the entire land of infidels/Jews and enact sharia law. Yes, the blockade sucks. Yes, it hurts civilians. Perhaps you haven’t heard or seen what Hamas actually did - a level of barbarism Israel has NEVER done - beheading babies, raping dozens of women, parading their bodies through the streets, do I have to go on with this sickening list for you to recognise the depth of atrocities committed? They fucking beheaded babies. But the information is out there now. Trying to prevent this is why there is a blockade.

So tell me, if you’re not justifying the complete slaughter of all Palestinians in the region, what are you arguing for? If you’re not advocating ethnic cleansing, what is it you’re advocating for?<

Recognition of Hamas’ agency in this. Recognition of militants’ agency in this. Recognition of non-combatant Palestinian extremists’ agency in this. Recognition of other Muslim agency in this. Recognition that every de-escalation by Israel has been used by militants, not to build Palestine but to regroup and rearm. Recognition that Israel cannot fix this unilaterally and that there is no one for Israel to negotiate peace with.

Why wouldn’t you at least keep quiet so you can play the role of a complicit bystander, rather than speak up and become an avid advocate?<

And we come full circle in your post, where you start by recognising your overzealousness in getting the number of Palestinian deaths you’re accusing off so enormously, egregiously wrong, to you overzealously accusing me of this enormously, egregiously wrong sort of crap.

Your emotions have run away with you. However justified in those emotions you might feel, they’re leading you to thoroughly unjustifiable errors.

What a bizarre and unfounded leap. Your assertion is completely and entirely false.

Jewish schools in Europe are closed today. Synagogues and other places where Jews gather have been evaluating the risk they face and acting as they need to. Some might say that the claims Hamas has called for a “Day of Rage” today are internet rumours but we have to take them seriously because the consequences of failing to are so severe.

There will be calls for jihad against Jews. There always are. As emboldened as militants and wanna-bes are by Hamas’, as they see it, success in killing Jews (and yes, I chose that designation specifically and intentionally) last weekend, it won’t be different now. There have been and will be calls for jihad against us.

When Palestine attacks Israel, antisemitic violence around the world increases. When Israel attacks Palestine, antisemitic violence around the world increases. This is what diaspora Jews live with.

Bomb threats on diaspora Jewish organisations started last Saturday. Diaspora Jews have been on high alert all week.

The majority of people at those demonstrations will be peaceful. But some won’t. Some will use the gatherings to foment violence against diaspora Jews. There’s no right answer in this. If you’re affected and chaffing at the denial of your right to shout in numbers, please consider that this ban will very likely save lives, especially in France. Please don’t dismiss this just because those lives are diaspora Jews and you don’t much care about us.

Edit: Notices the number of people who have convinced themselves that putting French Jews in danger is alright, cause you know, Palestine. Terror attacks against Jews in France is a thing, you know. Done in the name of freeing Palestine, as if French Jews had the power to change anything in another country.

You’ve seen in unarguable terms how little Hamas cares for life. They’ll exploit the suffering and deaths of Gazans in their war against Israel. How can you possibly continue to think Gazans are able to “speak up” against Hamas after what you’ve seen Hamas do?

Wherever you got that 500k number from, get rid of that as a source. It is wrong by several orders of magnitude. Since 2010 it’s 4,882.

Which of course is still 4,882 too many.

The only ethnic cleansing in Gaza was when all Jews were removed in 2005. It is not being ethnically cleansed of Gazans. I am not “justifying ethnic cleansing” in talking about the role Palestinian militants play in these deaths.

What I am trying to get through here is that Palestinian militants are complicit in and exploit these deaths because - until the barbaric rampage last Saturday - these deaths have the militants’ most effective weapon against Israel. They provoke Israel, Israel responds, civilians die, militants continue. When they take a break from provoking, Israel stops too. This is consistent. It’s observable over and over and over again, except it doesn’t become news until Israel responds.

Hamas’ provocation last weekend was so extreme the world sat up and noticed. Israel is responding. It’s the same pattern. You’ve now seen it yourself. It is still true that if Palestine lays down their weapons, there will be no more war; but if Israel lays down theirs, there will be no more Israel.

So back to my question to you, how do you propose to contain Hamas without harming civilians?

If you don’t have an answer, don’t fall back on your old IsraelBad tropes or attacks on me. Recognise that it is an impossible line for anyone to walk. Hamas, who very intentionally embed themselves in civilian centres for the precise reason that attacking them means killing civilians, cannot be contained without harming civilians. That’s not justifying or excusing their deaths at all. I am recognising the reality on the ground which must be dealt with.

You’ve made up a whole hell of a lot that I DIDN’T SAY.

So you’re way to counter an impossible situation peacefully is to make up crap about me, list things Israel’s done and hasn’t done (cause some of what you’re citing is jihadi propaganda and make up complete shite about genocide. Yes Israel could wipe Gaza out entirely. They haven’t.

They haven’t.

Israel is in an impossible situation. They contribute to it, but they didn’t create it. ISRAEL CANNOT SOLVE IT ALONE. Any attempt to do so is considered by Palestinian militants a sign of weakness to be exploited. That’s the reality. Deal with it.

But oh no, put all the fucking blame on Israel for not managing to walk an impossible line in an impossible situation.

Yep. It’s a double edged sword. It sucks. Absolutely sucks.

It also feeds militant goals for war and chaos and hampers everyone’s efforts towards peace. It’s an impossible line for Israel to walk. But you all would rather blame Israel than the militants 🤦

Oh fucking hell. Anything to hang Arab militancy - which has existed since before Israel re-emerged as a modern state - on Israel, eh?

So PRECISELY how does Israel starve Hamas, PIJ, Muslim Brotherhood, and that long history of anti-Jewish militancy? Stop existing? Jump into the sea? That would do it, if the land were finally Judenrein 🙄. Gazans in general might be open to a real resolution to the conflict which accepts the existence of Israel as a Jewish state but their leadership isn’t. How do we remove dictators like Hamas from power? They’re not going to go of their own accord. Israel showing perceived weakness emboldens them. Israel taking steps to reduce terrorism is condemned. It’s an impossible situation and Palestinian militancy thrives on it.

Don’t give me meaningless platitudes that are nothing more than substance-free word play. Deal with the complexity of the reality.

Yeah, it’s pretty shitty inside Gaza for some people. (There are also luxury shopping malls and much wealth. Vloggers share that part of it on Arabic-language social media, quite different from the idea of universal poverty presented on European-language social media.)

Israel can’t force the PA or Hamas to distribute aid money evenly. They can’t force Hamas to run the Gazan economy better. Israel does not have all the power here.

Militants use the concrete to build underground bunkers for themselves and tunnels into Israel. If they didn’t do that, there wouldn’t be a restriction on the amount of concrete allowed in. Israel isn’t limiting it to be cruel or pissy. Every restriction is an attempt to reduce violence and terrorism.

When militants destroy infrastructure for bringing electricity, water and other supplies in, Israel rebuilds it. The siege is horrible. I do not deny that at all. But Hamas only listens to force. Signs of perceived weakness (including Israel’s unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005) are taken as a signal to increase attacks, that the infidel opponent is weak and can be destroyed. Hamas is so emboldened by what they “achieved” Saturday, of how weak they made Israel, they’re not going to stop until they are forced to. Why is this aspect of their militancy so hard for westerners to see?

Israel has to show itself as stronger than Hamas. Absorbing the losses without offensive reaction will lead to more and more and more death and violence. If only this weren’t the case, but Israel has to deal with the reality of militant thinking. They don’t have the luxury of internet sophistry like we do. I don’t know how anyone could possibly handle this in terms Hamas, PIJ, Muslim Brotherhood, Iran et al will understand which also keeps civilian Gazans safe.

That, and it is an absolute tragedy, is part of how the militants work. They will sacrifice civilians, celebrate them as martyrs and exploit their deaths and suffering as part of their war to eradicate Israel and bring the entirety of the land - river to sea, not just Gaza, not just West Bank - under sharia law.

Their role in all of this MUST be understood.

So you don’t grasp WHY the blockades are in place then? How graphic do I need to get in explaining that they are there to reduce terrorist incursions into Israel and to reduce militants’ missile capability. You have seen what militants do when they breach that border, and yet you want that border open?!?!?

Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 wasn’t an empty gesture. It was a unilateral move towards peace which was violently rejected by Gazans. That part of it doesn’t fit your IsraelBad narrative but it’s vital to understanding the full picture. You have the luxury of ignoring it. You will still be safe. Israelis don’t have that luxury. Palestinian terrorists make sure they can’t forget.

Do you honestly think Hamas and the other militant groups have no power in this at all? Ok, so maybe you aren’t aware of how shitty Hamas is in running Gaza, how much aid money Hamas’ leadership skims off for their own wealth, how they keep some Gazans in poverty so they can be exploited in anti-Israel PR, their whole cult of martyrdom and jihad.

But now you’ve seen how little Hamas cares for human lives. You cannot deny the immense ruthless barbarity of their actions Saturday. They will sacrifice Gazan lives too, because, until the slaughtering rampage last weekend, that is and always has been their most effective weapon against Israel. Hamas, PIJ, Muslim Brotherhood, they will sacrifice civilian Gazans, celebrate them as martyrs and keep on doing it.

How the eff do you counter that peacefully? Please tell me, cause I would love to know.

It would be so lovely if it were possible to open up Gaza whilst still containing Hamas. Do you have a proposal for how to do that? Don’t forget the containing Hamas part. You might not want to accept it but you’ve seen what Hamas will do if they have free access to Israel.

We’ve all seen what happens when Hamas breaches the border now. That’s why the border and checkpoints are there.

Israel’s unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 wasn’t an “empty political gesture”. Far from it. So far from it.

It was met by violence. It was met by the rise of Hamas.

And now that Hamas have told you very clearly exactly who they are, believe them. I know you won’t listen to Jews, so look at the utter barbarity and scale of the atrocities Hamas carried out. Look at that honestly and listen to what Hamas is telling all of us about who they are.

Can you do that and still maintain they should have free run of Israel? They slaughtered 260 kids at a music festival for peace. Their charter calls for the slaughter of Jews OUTSIDE of Israel as well as within. And you want Israel to give them open access so they can fulfill it?

i’ve only found k-drama communities on lemmy and it seems like they’re all abandoned. i know several k-fanatics on mastodon, some hardcore c-drama folk and 3 other thai fans. i don’t know if lemmy plays well with the more twitter-like parts of the fediverse but i can introduce you there if you have an account. i think we can DM on here?

Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Olmert was working on a plan to withdraw from West Bank next.

If militant Palestinian leadership were willing to live in peace with Israel there would be peace. They’ve refused so many opportunities to become their own independent state because it requires allowing Israel to also exist in peace.