This shit is why end to end encryption is so important.
All platforms, no matter how trustworthy, can be corrupted. No e2e, no privacy.
But this is intentional. TG’s ToS forbids alternative clients with their own E2EE.
Also he’s the VK founder, which kills any idea of “trustworthy” immediately.
It’s part of TG’s business model, I think, something in the price list for governments. And the way they treat alternative clients in reality also hints that maybe backdoors are as well. Say, a new message format of the day (they add them really often) arrives in a new official Telegram version, somehow it’s nowhere to be seen in the channels and groupchats you’re in, but some day a DM arrives with harmless text and some code runs on your client machine.
I use Telegram, but trusting it would be asinine. Even trustworthy services can be abused, and TG doesn’t even pretend to be that.
I think he got arrested because happening to be in Baku for a couple weeks and then still be there at the same time with Putin-Aliyev meeting, and their agreements apparently having intersections with Durov’s activity, is openly weird.
Reminds me of the Anom phone. E2E encryption, but the whole thing was run by law enforcement.
Well, yes.
The idea was fine, until it spread to normies which don’t understand that “proprietary software” means a whole city or factory which they won’t be able to study and understand in 10 years, while “free and open source software” means the same, but with a map. And that in the latter case there is at least a category of interested people who’ll look for traps there, and it’s built by such people, while in the former it’s all commercial company’s property.
And that TG desktop’s sources being open doesn’t mean that there’s a confirmed lack of traps.
People severely underestimate the complexity of what they use. Maybe they just shouldn’t, if valuing privacy.
I really think there’s a niche for some “luddite machines” running Forth with an operating system a normie can grasp.
Or we are going to have something worse than most examples of anti-utopia I’ve read\seen.
Useless. Current allegations are related to the absence of moderation. Moderation of public content, in public channels or chats. As you can guess, end to end encryption does not protect public content.
E2E is just one part of the puzzle, you got to have a open source P2P or federated architecture as well, otherwise you have to trust a nebulous company or person intrinsically. People change and companies can be bought, but you will be stuck with their platform in order to contact your acquaintances, and changing that means loosing your contacts.
That is why the DMA is important. But you will be even better off just directly choosing a chat platform, where the users are in control.
What crimes did he personally commit?
From translating TFA:
Justice considers that the absence of moderation, cooperation with law enforcement and the tools offered by Telegram (disposable number, cryptocurrencies, etc.) makes it complicit in drug trafficking, child crime offenses and fraud.
Same reason Russia wanted to arrest him, failure to do the government’s bidding.
By that logic we should arrest all Car company CEOs for being complicit in crime lol, it’s not exactly his choice what people do with his product
Not really comparable because the illegal content is hosted and distributed through his servers. Which is why most sites are moderated to a degree. This dude basically said “fuck off” whenever takedowns were issued. It’s hardly a surprise that he’s been arrested.
Illegal content is distributed through snail mail and telephones too, but those are common carriers so they aren’t liable. Why should Telegram be any different?
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They can open every piece of mail and read the contents.
Yes
The analogy works if you lease or rent.
Rent a car, commit a crime, boom — rental company is on the hook apparently. Moronic.
The rental company, on the other hand, is more than willing to turn you in to not be considered liable. Which they probably would be if they impeded an investigation.
Your modified analogy is broken, since it is impossible for an encryption service to provide the information being subpoenaed by definition. You wouldn’t claim Hertz is “impeding an investigation” by failing to use telepathy. Damn but authoritarians are stupid.
So… you’re saying your own analogy is disanalogous…
But, have you noticed that after committing a crime, criminals and felons usually escape… using a car?
This is more like arresting the getaway driver, not the car manufacturer.
Except the getaway driver is just a cabbie who will drive anyone who gets in. He didn’t know he was part of a heist.
Would you hold the CEO of lyft responsible if one of their self-driving cars were used in a heist?
If the CEO of Lyft got repeated warnings that this very thing was happening and ignored them willfully, then yes. In the end he has nobody to blame but himself. It’s no different from hosting a file sharing platform without ever vetting the content and wondering why the cops show up one day. The stupidity of going to France knowing that you’re a wanted man in a number of countries is just the cherry on top.
Not sure. I was just bored and was making a funny comment.
Not really comparable because the illegal content is hosted and distributed through his servers.
landlords should be prosecuted for crimes commited by tenants in houses they rented out to the tenants.
I mean depending on the crimes, yeah. If a child porn ring runs out of your building and you’re alerted to its continued existence, and the police are asking who lives there and you don’t tell them and keep renting to them? Yeah.
If the landlord knows it’s happening and let it happen then yeah, that’s what being complicit is all about
how are you meant to know, by impeding on your tenant’s privacy constantly?
Well, telegram has public and private conversations. So in this example, you’d know because they were having trafficking parties on their front yard and the police of multiple countries notified them to let them know. And then you were aware of this issue so you purposely avoided being in numerous countries that want to arrest you. Seems like he knew.
People need houses to live. Taking stuff off your own server doesn’t throw someone out onto the streets and leave them to the elements. Come on lol
The criminals ate bread before the heist, better round up all the grain farmers
Next they’ll charge oil executives for damage to the planet
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Next they’ll make encrypting your own files illegal. Absolutely preposterous. Do better police work!
Next up, outlawing pencil erasers and flammable paper
So your pro arresting gun and ammo manufacturing company CEOs?
I’m all for it. Time to end the guns supply chain.
Oh for fucks sake I’m so tired of this bullshit.
Governments nowadays are constantly acting like a tech platform has a responsibility eliminate privacy for users because if they have privacy, then they can’t be tracked. It’s infuriating.
Told Russia to fuck off, and now France is complicit.
Tells us a lot about how governments view Telegram.
has nothing to do with Russia, according to the linked article
Pourquoi était-il sous la menace d’un mandat de recherche ?
La Justice considère que l’absence de modération, de coopération avec les forces de l’ordre et les outils proposés par Telegram (numéro jetable, cryptomonnaies…) le rend complice de trafic de stupéfiants, d’infractions pédocriminels et d’escroquerie.
Ce mandat de recherche courait si, et seulement si, Pavel Durov se trouvait sur le territoire national.
En effet, Telegram est une ruche pour les contenus criminels. En ce moment, la plateforme fait l’actualité avec la diffusion illégale des matchs de Ligue 1. Mais sur cette messagerie chiffrée, de nombreux comptes sont utilisés par la criminalité organisée. Au-delà du terrorisme, les plus dangereux pédocriminels communiquent sur Telegram pour échanger des contenus. “C’est devenu depuis des années LA plateforme numéro 1 pour le crime organisé”, commente un enquêteur.
even if it’s not about telegram, this might help to understand ☞ https://www.laquadrature.net/en/2023/12/15/encryption-discussion-during-the-8-december-trial-from-myth-to-reality/
Several of the defendants were questioned about their use of tools and software such as Signal, Tor and Tails, and about the encryption of their computers and hard drives. The questioning followed the same pattern as the prosecution’s investigations, which we revealed a few months ago: a huge amount of confusion as to the technical understanding of these tools combined with a suspicious approach to their actual use. Three defendants were questioned about their motivation for using such software, as if a well-argued justification was needed, even though the tools are perfectly normal, legal and ordinary.
“It is possible and not forbidden to have these tools, but we can ask ourselves why dissimulate information” the president of the court stated. Suspicion of clandestinity coupled with little knowledge of the subject was evident in their questions: “You explain that the use of this ‘kind of network’ [Signal] was to preserve your privacy, but are you afraid of being monitored?”. Or: “Why did you think it was important or a good idea to find out about this ‘kind of environment’ [the Tails operating system]?”.
Thanks for that.
So basically, “Why are you hiding from us? Only criminals hide, so you must be hiding criminal activity!”
From the article
The Justice considers that the lack of moderation, cooperation with the forces of law and order and the tools offered by Telegram (disposable number, cryptocurrencies, etc.) makes it complicit in drug trafficking, paedo criminal offences and fraud.
But a lot of people are speculating they just fabricated claims to arrest him because Telegram is russian.
As the CEO he should be responsible for anything he was facilitating as part of his business, and that would include crimes committed using telegram that he was aware of and both did nothing to remove from his service and made it harder for law enforcement to prosecute. You know, like how a warehouse owner who knowingly sells space to pedos and does what he can to keep the police from searching the warehouee is complicit.
There are some circumstances where they are unaware or only take halfhearted measures, but in this case it looks like he is being investigated for actively working to enable criminals, including pedos. As the head executive, he doesn’t have to do it personally if he is directing staff to make it happen.
Edit: explaining the logic behind something isn’t the same as agreeing with that logic
I’m sorry, but it’s a private messaging app! Not even the owners are supposed to know what is going on in the chats. It’s not a moderation situation - I don’t know if he rejected a request to ban accounts, but it isn’t how things are supposed to be.
Isn’t the main problem that most people don’t use the E2E encrypted chat feature on Telegram, so most of what’s going on is not actually private and Telegram does have the ability to moderate but refuses to (and also refuses to cooperate)?
Something like Signal gets around this by not having the technical ability to moderate (or any substantial data to hand over).
Exactly. Telegram has a ton of public channels full of content that is illegal in most EU countries and refuses to comply with any local laws on things like hate speech. They know perfectly well what their platform is used for, they just don’t care. It would be a wildly different case if everything were E2E encrypted by default.
Also they use a custom encryption protocol that had bugs that look like a backdoor. https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/113020871978942265
Well, the French police seem to be saying the way he is running the company involves being knowingly complicit, not that they just happen to be hosting/facilitating communication without the company’s knowledge.
They could be wrong, but this is part of the process of finding out.
only take halfhearted measures
Like what exactly?
Moderation that doesn’t do anything. Have terms and conditions that aren’t enforced. General ‘we care’ things that aren’t actually effective.
How do you moderate something you can’t know about?
I assume that proving they can’t know about it would be part of the defense if it goes to trial.
That is the point of E2EE. If anyone but the sender and receiver can see the messages then it’s not E2EE. This is the part that politicians and governments don’t understand (or just ignore). The idea that some designated authority can look at the messages when needed is entirely at odds with E2EE. It’s as valid as true = false or 2 + 2 = cat.
On the other hand, the app does nothing to inform them about the “Secret Chat” option. Once a user kick-starts a new chat, Telegram stays silent about options other than the default.
Look, if this was an app that allowed for E2EE on all communication and did not store any of the communication on some company’s servers I would be saying France is completely 100% wrong. France is wrong in saying the encryption is the problem, but they are partially right about Telegram not complying with legal requirements as it does not encrypt all communication and it should be obligated to comply with criminal investigations just like they would be obligated if they were a mail delivery service.
Just because something is on the internet doesn’t mean it isn’t subject to warrants. If a company can be compelled to provide written documentation in their possession, the same is true for electronic. That company should not be obligated to undermine their own encryption though.
By this logic, the US Navy should also get into legal trouble for creating the Tor project.
Selective enforcement of law is a tool of oppression. Happens all the time in oppressive regimes.
“Laws are threats made by the dominant socioeconomic-ethnic group in a given nation. It’s just the promise of violence that’s enacted and the police are basically an occupying army. You know what I mean?”
-Dimension20
Sounds like French law enforcement wants a police state that supercedes the civil rights of the public.
You know, the French public have a reputation for getting ugly when the state gets uppity.
That sword over Damocles is swaying in the breeze.
French law enforcement wants a police state
Not at all.
But by tradition in this country, the police has a more “robust” way of doing things. Makes no sense to judge that by other countries’ ways.
Looks like France is enforcing chat control 2.0 a bit prematurely.
The EU council is meeting to discuss it again on October 10. A new vote is likely in mid-December. Many parties and countries have turned their coat to support the proposal.
I have not followed this at all. Seems okay at face value. Is that the point, that “protect the kids” a is pretext to creep towards eventual screening of everything?
The meme says the big internet companies are already doing this. Isn’t it a legit problem that this sort of harmful child sexual abuse material just moves around the internet like whack-a-mole?
The Democratic nations of the world have all gone to Telegram and begged for help to address human trafficking, to address terrorism, to literally prevent wars, and they are told to fuck off. Seems criminal to me.
What should be criminal is forcing private citizens to act as police officers and throwing them in jail if they refuse.
I think you got the point. Criminals use the same services as the rest of us. CSAM is being used as pretext to outlaw or bypass end-to-end encryption.
It’s a noble cause, but it puts all of us in a vulnerable position. As post-communist countries know from past experience, once these measures are in place the next government will use it for surveillance of all kind when it’s their turn.
Yes, I know. If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear. I’m not doing anything illegal at the toilet, but I still prefer to keep the door closed - even if I’m home alone.
Chat control 1.0 has been voluntarily inplemented by big platforms, but it has not been fruitful. Lots of false positives and not enough resources to look at the true positives. The delegates preparing this have demonstrated poor technical understanding.
Whistleblowers won’t have confidence in anonymity. A journalist asked the author (Ylva Johansson) of the proposal if he, as a journalist, would still be able to receive tips from whistleblowers with secrecy. She stumbled ln her answer and said that CSAM should be illegal.
Police and officials are of course exempt from chat control 2.0. Secrecy for me, but not for thee. . .
English language story from Reuters (no paywall) for anyone that doesn’t speak French…
“criticism from X owner Elon Musk who said that free speech in Europe was under attack.”
Comes from the guy who bans certain words and anything negative about him on X. Oh the irony.
Rules for thee not for me
Please know men like him care more about dominance than intellectual honesty. He doesn’t care about the actual philosophical nature of free speech. He cares about getting his way.
Power, money. Fuck the rest.
Firefox french translation, not perfect but usable.
Why was he under threat of a research mandate?
The Justice considers that the lack of moderation, cooperation with the forces of law and order and the tools offered by Telegram (disposable number, cryptocurrencies, etc.) makes it complicit in drug trafficking, paedo criminal offences and fraud.
This research mandate ran if, and only if, Pavel Durov were in the national territory. “He made a pellet tonight. We don’t know why… Was this theft just one step? In any case, it is ready-made”, slips a source close to the investigation to TF1/LCI. Ever since he knew himself persona non grata in France, Pavel Durov used to travel to the Emirates, to the countries of the former USSR, to South America … He had travelled very little in Europe and avoided the countries where Telegram is under surveillance.
What now?
Investigators from the National Anti-Fraud Office attached to the Customs Directorate (ONAF) notified him and held him in police custody. He should be presented to an investigating judge this Saturday evening before a possible indictment on Sunday for a multitude of offences: terrorism, narcotics, complicity, fraud, money laundering, concealment, child-criminal content…
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Unlike other chat services Telegram has a “social” aspect and search capabilities for locating public discussion channels.
Furthermore E2EE is optional and most people don’t turn it on and is certainly not on in public channels.
While techies are freaking out about an attack on encryption the articles I’ve read so far don’t mention anything about encryption or otherwise it seems that French police is concerned about moderation or attempts at moderation of those public channels, that Telegram specifically refuses to moderate.
Perhaps this will be an attack on encryption by stealth but at this point that’s not what it looks like.
As a personal anecdote when I installed Telegram a few years ago and searched for my city’s name the top 20 results where channels offering to sell you heroin - which I thought was so blatant as to be certain it was police sting operations - but who knows.
Unlike other chat services Telegram has a “social” aspect and search capabilities for locating public discussion channels.
That’s the good part. I hope something else takes the niche.
But it being very insecure and positioned as secure is bad.
And some people think Brazil is being extreme on putting fines for X (Twitter) to pay for not blocking some accounts.
This guy is accused of being accomplice to crime just for creating and maintaining the platform where criminals do their dealings.
The road is downhill, my friends.
If somebody runs a market hall and allows stalls to be set up where narcotics and CSAM is being sold, and profits from it, and ignores police requests to stop it, I would like something to happen against that person. That person is complicit.
What I can’t understand is why telegram doesn’t just set up the some moderation systems. Most of their growth surely doesn’t come from drug dealers and pederasts? It feels like it would be a tiny element of it and not worth the hassle.
I suspect Durov doesn’t like dealing with big teams and can’t be bothered.
I’m a heavy user of Telegram (average about 1h of screen time every day, and pay for Telegram Premium) entirely because all my friends are on it and that’s because it is the best messaging client BY FAR. I’d love not to share this platform with criminals.
Since when did fighting crime become a “totalitarian state” thing to do?
I hope they arrest the CEO of ExxonMobil next. Arrest all the CEOs, France.
to take into consideration:
The Russia-born entrepreneur lives in Dubai, where Telegram is based, and holds dual citizenship of France and the United Arab Emirates.
Reeks of the chat history access attempts and the like, or is it just my paranoia?
Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean you’re wrong.
Your making me feel worse
My plug is on Telegram. Afaik (at least in France) it’s mostly used to sell drugs. I’m not surprised the police would like their cut
Telegram has always had the sketchiest people on it. I refuse to use it because it feels like I’m talking with human traffickers. Doesn’t surprise me he was arrested.
I refuse to use it because it feels like I’m talking with human traffickers
I, too, prefer spending my time on subs related to things I neither own, used nor enjoy!
So never used the app, but flat out make that assumption. Check. lol
I’m a sex worker so I get a LOT of requests to use Telegram. Human trafficking is something I am directly exposed to and I am in danger of. The men who request to use Telegram make me feel in danger. So it doesn’t surprise me the owner of that app was arrested. My assumption comes from my experience.
This sub isn’t a telegram sub, it’s a technology one. I use technology.
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Oh shit! Not criminals and paedophiles! I didn’t realize they were using Telegram to break the law. Yes, we should definitely end E2E encryption if that’s the case. Thank you for enlightening me 🙏🙏
While we are at it, why not voluntarily wire out houses and put a person to interpret our conversations on 24/7 duty into our cellars? You never know whether your family members or you yourself are complicit of something.
Alexia has entered the chat.
I don’t get that reference 😬 A link pls?
All modes of transportation should be abolished because every day they’re used in kidnappings, murders, and drug deals. At the very least, we should allow warrantless searches of all people based on the gut feeling of militant high school dropouts. That certainly won’t be abused.
I have it on good authority that pedos and criminals drive cars and eat food too! We should do something to those facilitating that.
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The food and car companies aren’t doing anything to stop this, either. I wonder if maybe we should open a company that is specialized in fighting crime.
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That wasn’t a car company, it was a Romanian state-owned enterprise known as ‘Poliția’
If a car company made a vehicle that has features that specifically would help with human trafficking and not getting caught, then yeah imo they should be charged.
Just like how any company making a harmful product should be held accountable.
You forgot the
/sHelen Lovejoy syndrome strikes again.
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