The atmosphere is so heated, and the statements are getting more and more extreme. Let’s just assume Harris wins the election. After a campaign like this, how could you ever have a normal relationship with your pro-Trump neighbor/father-in-law/Uncle/Barber or what ever again?
After a campaign like this, how could you ever have a normal relationship with your pro-Trump neighbor/father-in-law/Uncle/Barber or what ever again?
You’re assuming those relationships survived the 2020 election. For many, myself included, they didn’t.
I was willing to overlook 2016, but after 4 years of horror culminating in a (failed) coup, and those people still supporting him, I just cut them out of my life.
Supporting Trump is no different than supporting Hitler. I find it very easy to cut nazis out of my life.
One side wants me dead, there are no worthy discussions to be had.
That’s understandable. It’s also, in microcosm, the reason your country is so divided. If you want to continue living in a democracy, you’re all going to have to talk - and listen - to each other.
I don’t disagree at all. However, that is a whole lot easier said than done when one side is so far gone in an alternate reality of lies and hate.
We’re going to need a mass cult de-programming or something. I just don’t know how we come back from where we are.
The usual way to fix these things is civil war. Don’t worry, you won’t have to start it, the racists and fascists will do it for you. And then they’ll get annihilated, like always.
This is because they may be loud, aggressive, greedy, hateful and boastful which all help them start and ramp up wars. But they are also stupid, cowardly, irrational, week minded and a minority, which make them loose these wars.
What you think about them, they think about you. They’re not evil, they’re not idiots. If they lived nextdoor you would probably find each other very pleasant.
I just don’t know how we come back from where we are.
It looks pretty simple from where I’m standing. You talk to them. You listen to them. You find things you agree on, beginning with the smaller things. They’re not automatons, they’re people.
Update. This avalanche of supposedly tolerant progressives who are openly against the idea of talking to their fellow citizens proves to me that America deserves everything it gets. Good luck.
Naw, maybe you’re not queer and not being called a pedo, or followed or having your job threatened by a former president. It’s not my job to raise an adult right and free of hate, I have one child. I don’t need to burn myself out giving Republicans 3rd and 4th chances to be decent people.
“What you think about them, they think about you”
No, this is precisely the issue. Any leftist worth their salt can’t fucking stand conservatives and YET we will still protect their basic human rights and accept them into a collective society.
Conservatives on the other hand are perpetrating violence every single day against leftists and minorities they LOUDLY do not accept into a collective society. They deny abortions for women who are on the verge of death, they advocate for draconian health care policy that massively raises the suicide rates of trans kids because they hate trans kids and they believe deep down in their racism with an unshakable fervor that makes their meager spiritual practice of christianity look sad and pathetic in comparison.
It is far past the point of having a debate with rightwing conservatives, what is left is to intimidate them into shutting up, drowning out their voices and laughing at their tiny hateful visions of the universe.
The social fabric of the US is being ripped apart by conservative white men because they can’t handle how scary using pronouns is and frankly the solution is to activate everybody else, not humor these people yet again with another discussion they are going to approach in a fundamentally disengenous way.
They’re not evil, they’re not idiots.
Hard disagree.
Your first sentence, yes I agree. The next two, not so much. In my town in 2020 we had groups of these chuds roaming around downtown, armed, hunting for “antifa,” meaning anyone wearing black or looking slightly punk. Some of them really do want to shoot us with impunity.
But yeah, it’s also my parents, who probably wouldn’t turn me into the gestapo, but the cognitive dissonance where they simultaneously believe I’m their family but I’m also “the enemy within” doesn’t seem sustainable. At some point, it’s got to be one or the other. Getting them to agree on small things hasn’t changed their overall loyalty to the party, their disdain for Dems, or our relationship.
What you think about them, they think about you.
True, but irrelevant.
They’re not evil, they’re not idiots.
Hard disagree - they have to be at least one of those things to be MAGA, usually both.
If they lived nextdoor you would probably find each other very pleasant.
Hah! They DO live next door and I most certainly don’t find them pleasant.
Let’s assume that they are not bad people. In order to bring them to sanity, it would take an ungodly amount of pressure, and they would have to have no connections back to the cult. If there is even a single connection all the effort would be for naught.
They are not where they are, due to logic or empathy, so you can’t use logic or empathy to argue them out of it. I lost my entire extended family over this.
You are dead wrong. I was raised in a deeply conservative lifestyle with conservative friends, family, and neighbors. I retired from a career steeped in conservatives, working shoulder to shoulder with them daily. The vast majority of the people I’ve known through the years have been conservative. I’ve been talking and listening this whole fucking time, trying to move them toward reason, naively thinking they would someday grow emotionally, become empathetic or introspective. A conservative is simply not able to experience these things. Empathy and introspection are not conservative traits.
Conservatives will not budge an inch. The more one attempts to reason with them, the more angry they become. If you aren’t careful, you will end up on their enemies list just for being a suspected non-conservative.
I appreciate your friendly approach, as it seems to come from a place of kindness and empathy, but that capacity for empathy does not exist in a conservative.
Never in history has fascism been cured by just talking and listening. Historically, the cure for fascism is only delivered by force.
They’re not evil, they’re not idiots.
No, they’re both. They know they’re spreading hate, and they find it funny.
I know what you mean, when I put to nazis and bigots, through various civil discourses, the most agreeable and cordial justifications for their systematic capture and extermination or deportation, to my great surprise, they never acquiesce to any form of intellectual exchange, regarding the legitimate concerns I raise.
Its the most bizzare thing because, just previously, they’d been more than happy to declare thus and so the most polite and reasonable argumentations supporting the very same thing for other people. More so, they many were lamenting how unfair it was for them to be denied the opportunity to pontificate on such matters, just a short time previously.
I’m sure you can only imagine my surprise when they did this, after their claims of wanting nothing more than “civil discourse.”
Yankee here, and fully agree with what you said. Unfortunately, empathy seems to be an increasingly lost art in this country and it only seems to get worse as each side continues to dehumanized the other.
No. It’s called the Paradox of Tolerance. “Discussing” rationally with the intolerant only serves to justify their position in their own eyes and thereby embolden them.
In other words, putting up with them simply gives them more ink
Turning the other cheek only works if the person doing the slapping has a sense of shame. Trump and his ilk have long since proven they have none.
I don’t remember who said it first, but I’ve linked it before: there’s no paradox if tolerance is a social contact rather than an ethic. If someone breaks the terms of the contact, then the other party is not bound by it any more.
Yeah. Although what if half of the country is intolerant? What then? Divide the country into two?
Then you remove the nazis from your country by any means necessary. I’m sick of people talking about tolerance in the face of genocidal bigotry.
Calm your pits Beka.
Nobody should be advocating for a Final Solution.
People were this divided over FDR. My next door neighbor only ever referred to FDR as that “gimpy legged sonofabitch”. This was in the 1970’s.
If the good guys win the election, we can start to heal this if we choose to. But only if we take the complaints of everyone seriously. Ignoring the needs and political power of white men is what got us into this cluster.
If the bad guys win, start looking for allies.
What complaint am I supposed to be taking seriously exactly?
The one where trans people are invading women’s spaces to rape them?
The one where immigrants are all violent criminals who eat dogs?
Or maybe the one where women are getting abortions instead of using birth control and should not be allowed to make decisions about their own bodies?
I am a white man. I don’t care about the complaints of white men that boil down to “I’ve been on top for so long that any attempt at equity feels like a threat to that position”.
If Trump said:
Then you remove the nazis from your country by any means necessary
We would know what he meant. You are saying the same genocidal thing.
Most of them are hurting in one way or another. This particular round it’s mostly the financial, mental and emotional aftershocks of the pandemic amplified by greedy people coming up with new and inventive ways to take money from the poor and give it to the rich.
But you need to first hear and understand their pain to have any hope of getting through to them.
They’ve been told over and over through misinformation that immigrants, people with disabilities, loose/secular/independent women, people of different religious beliefs, skin colour, whatever else are the reason for their suffering, and that they should be afraid of them. That initial pain is channeled from fear to anger to hate to dehumanization to… “final solutions”.
They want Trump in because they’ve been convinced that he’s powerful and “Trump will fix it.” ‘It’ being whatever the pain is.
The reality is of course a much different story of basically just greedy people distracting them while they steal their lunch money, and narcissists that will do anything to gain ever more power.
But if you want to unprogram someone from that you need to hear their pain. What was that thing that was used by the greedy and narcissistic to channel into hate.
It’s mostly hurt/hurting people who are voting for Trump. To turn them around you need to hear their pain.
I’m not sure it’s half, maybe half of the voting population but that’s usually only around 40-60% of the total population.
you’re all going to have to talk - and listen - to each other
We do not tolerate intolerance.
If you want democracy to survive you should be intolerant of intolerance.
In all seriousness, how does one listen to and communicate with people who have slid so far down a misinformation hole to a place where science is fake, every expert who disagrees is part of a global conspiracy, and the only people they listen to literally can’t stop lying?>
I still talk to and value my mother, and believe she is a good person, but she’s fallen prey to insidious propaganda and believes that Trump is just a flawed tool for God and the Republican platform is the only way to save the world from the forces of evil.
As an aside, my favorite conspiracy theory was how all the governments of the world were collaborating on the COVID lockdowns so they could control the people and take power. The governments capable of national lockdowns could take power. 🤦🏼♂️
I’m not listening to Nazis so fuck off.
I don’t need to talk to those who are openly racist. I’m not talking about some political double speak. I have trump voters in my community that openly use racist slurs in their discussion of immigrants, and minorities in town.
You are the company you keep, and those folks aren’t part of my life. Trump was just the vector to illuminate their position that was previously kept in hushed tones behind doors.
Yes, it’s our fault that fear-addicted racists have refused to listen to reason for decades and particularly during the last eight years when an obviously unfit clown was committing scandal after scandal. We should be inviting cultists who refuse to listen to us back into our lives and calmly discuss why it is good for the country to be a Christofascist dictatorship.
It’s hard to listen to the illiterate.
I get where you’re coming from. Unfortunately, it’s not really that simple. Sometimes a relationship is so toxic that there’s no way to restore the basic trust that’s needed in order to function as a unit. This is no different. Pre-Trump, we might have been able to talk and salvage things; at this point, they’re just as broken as a relationship full of cheating and domestic abuse. My fear is that the only way forward is breakup (ie civil war) or some other equally deep trauma.
My dad is on his death bed, I haven’t spoken to him in years, because he’s full on MAGA. It breaks my heart that I lost my dad to that cult and that I’ll lose him forever soon, but I will never forgive him for supporting the scum that is proud he stole womens rights.
So to answer your question, being sad and waiting for tomorrow.
To those giving you shit about cutting horrible people out of your life and saying you need to go visit…
Bullshit. Fuck that noise. I have family that I’ve cut out as well (although, luckily, not my parents). I’m 100% open to them rejoining my life, but their hatred for others is stronger than their love for me, and I won’t allow them back until that changes. Spoiler alert: it probably never will, because there’s no love like Christian “love”.
“Agree to disagree” is reserved for things like “I don’t like coffee.” Not racism, homophobia, and sexism. Not human rights. Not basic common decency. If I unfriend you during this, it IS personal. We do not have a difference of opinion. We have a difference in morality.
- @cdvaughn16, Twitter, 2020-06-05
Damn. I’m sorry :(
This is the correct energy. You already lost him. What’s dying now is some rabies-zombie.
Sorry you had to lose him in such a horrible way. I know exactly what that’s like to go through.
My dad is also MAGA but thankfully not very outspoken about it or I couldn’t stand to be around him. I’m still quite pissed at Trump and his cult following for putting the thought into my head that his death could be a net benefit to society.
Shit, I’ve been upset for losing a friend, your right, losing a parent is terrible, sorry to hear.
As someone who just lost a parent suddenly.
You will almost certainly regret that.
Nope, when my mom dies it will bring a weight off my shoulders, not having to make sure she doesn’t know where I live. The last time she lived by us she wrote manifestos about militant lesbians forcing straight women to become like them and stapled it around work and home.
My father’s death was one of the best things that happened to me.
Sure, because everyone’s experience with their parents is just like yours
No they won’t. I can’t wait for my parents to both fucking die so I can reconnect with my sisters without them being emotionally abused.
Fuck racists, I couldn’t care less how they die. They oppose my family, I spent 2 decades trying to accept my family, they didn’t.
Blood is thicker than your dad’s skull. Be bigger than him and hug him before he leaves you forever if it’s possible for you. Fuck the MAGA cultist mentality. Overcome his stubbornness and pride.
People are not owed love by circumstances of biological relation. They made the bed they lie in, actions have consequences, bridges can burn.
Given enough time person might look at their dad less like the asshole and more like the victim of a scam perpetrated by the real asshole, but life is tricky like that
There’s a lot that’s great about this. Need one change though–“scam” isn’t quite the word for this. If you scam somebody you can just fool them once, get their money, and get out.
“Darn, I have been fooled once, in the past, and won’t get that money back, I’ll look out for that scam now”. That’s a scam.
Getting up every day and choosing in each instance to be not just shitty, but a nazi, isn’t “getting scammed”. That’s something he participated in and is on the hook for. He had to go really far out of his way to do it.
It’s a beautiful and clarifying sentiment that, at most, only partly applies in this situation.
Getting up every day and choosing in each instance to be not just shitty, but a nazi
These people are getting up every morning and all they see are comments downplaying and explaining why it shouldn’t be taken literally. They turn on their favorite ‘news’ station which ignores the obvious and latches onto sensationalized nothingburgers and conjecture. Reality to them is an entirely different thing. They can’t see the forest for the trees. Everyone around them is telling them not to look. They step in a little too far and get caught in the undertow.
But this far right bullshit is happening all over the world, started happening as soon as everyone wound up with a phone in their pocket, and it often gets traced back to Russian interference and influence.
And the dumber it sounds, the more credence it gets, because it drives the other half up the fucking wall. Beetles are what’s causing the Canada wildfires, hurricane machines, Haitians eating cats and dogs, normal ass people are not letting these things become things organically
Agreed. I said “if it’s possible.” Pride is a real motherfucker for some, but I think it can be overcome. Hopefully they can do so with their dad.
The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb.
Your father is going to pass away and you’re really gunna let politics affect your relationship with him like that?
Looks like you’re the one in a cult. I feel bad for your pops
GTFO with that “politics” bullshit. It stopped being a purely political difference when Trump made it about racism, sexism, and all other possible forms of bigotry. It stopped being about purely bigotry when he tried to stage a coup.
Above and beyond, you don’t know their life. Maybe they needed a life-saving abortion and their father gleefully cackled when that right was effectively removed in many states. Maybe they’re black and their father bragged about the shootings of black folks, they’re latin and he chortled over the deportation rhetoric, or they’re Muslim and he rubbed the travel bans in their face. Maybe they have/had long COVID and their father gave it to them because “it’s a hoax.” There are so many reasons for cutting MAGA idiots out of your life and Trump’s political policy is the least of them
Unfortunately, when “politics” equals “whether certain people deserve basic human rights,” it’s not a minor issue. I don’t keep company with people who think I’m subhuman.
You say ‘politics’ like it is some trivial thing. Politics involves beliefs on personhood, human rights, racism, equity, crime and punishment, and fundamental ideas about morality. I think it is totally appropriate to make judgments about a person’s character based on their politics.
“Someone has an abusive relationship and you’re really gunna deny them the right to abuse you like that?”
That’s how you sound, Alice.
“My political opinion is I am going to strangle the person you love the most to death in front of you while you watch, and if you don’t let me have my political opinion, then who’s the real bad guy here?”
Make anything ok using this one neat trick!
Let’s say your mom needs chemo treatments and can’t drive herself. You wanna be good to your mom and drive her, but she’s recently developed a behavior from the stress and medication that when she’s in a car with someone, she fights with the driver trying to grab the steering wheel and aim the car at pedestrians.
It’s not her fault that she’s developed this behavior, but you’d think she could at least control herself and stop trying to run over pedestrians, but she says she doesn’t want to. Technically, since you’re driving, you could convince the police that you’re actually the one trying to commit vehicular manslaughter, so while you could deflect the blame, you really know it’s her own fault.
You could also physically restrain your mom, except for all those pesky elder-abuse laws and what kind of person would do that to their mother anyway?
So, what are you gonna do? Will you be a complicit party to your mom’s desire to see pedestrians run over, or will you stop letting her into your car and let her ride the train and bus like an adult? Remember, she’s dying from cancer, but lots of other people experience intrusive thoughts without acting on them and lots of other people don’t have family to support them but still manage just fine.
So, what’s your answer? Support your mom and tell her it’s okay to try killing/hurting people, or let her figure things out for herself and hope that she comes to her senses? She could always prove to you that she realized her behavior was wrong and that she’s ready to ride in the car with you.
And don’t worry, no matter what you answer, I’m still going to call you an asshole, because that’s how reductive internet trolls work. Cuz “fuck you, this is your mom, damn,” and “it’s just simple defensive driving.”
Yeah, I really can’t understand this. I have family and friends who vote differently to me, but I would never let that get in the way of our relationship, and I can’t understand the mentality of people who do.
I mean, if someone I knew turned out to be a full on neo-Nazi, then I’d steer well clear. But if someone just votes for the other main party to the one I do, who cares?
If my father was on his death bed, chances are I’d put most of it behind me and would ignore a lot of past transgressions.
OPs actions are a bit extreme. That being said, there isn’t much that separates a neo-nazi from a trump supporter in my mind. I can’t imagine anyone supporting him that isnt a complete piece of shit, and it is 100% a valid reason for cutting ties with people.
My wife and son are from another country, my children aren’t safe in American schools, my wife and daughter have less rights than a man in America, my 13 year old son was being bombarded constantly by what a “man should be” racist christofacist bullshit. My parents vote against my family, so they are no longer a part of it. We moved to my wife’s home country and never looked back.
I love my parents, but their hate for others was stronger than their love for my wife and kids. They can die alone with their red hats on.
Politics change, but blood is thicker than water. The way people are writing off family instead of just talking to them is awful.
The way people are writing off family instead of just talking to them is awful.
What makes you think we haven’t tried talking to them?
What makes you think we haven’t tried talking to them? Often times that detail is left out, and what you see or hear about is how they just don’t talk anymore.
Trust me, most of us have tried and tried and tried and tried and tried and tried. Some certainly may have preemptively cut people out without discussion, but most of us have beaten our heads against a wall for almost a decade now, trying to convince them that we’re human beings with dignity who deserve respect. We just withdraw from engagement, piece by piece, until there’s nothing lost by just giving up. Cutting them off is usually the last and most consequential move, rather than the first.
I agree. I wish Donald’s cultists would talk and listen to these family members trying to pull them out. It is a shame that Repubs are writing their family off and instead deciding to believe bigoted delusions.
I agree with you, and it’s also a shame that Democrats are writing their family off instead of deprogramming in a non-hateful way. You’d be surprised how Trump supporting relatives can get onboard with socialized medicine, by just talking to them as if they’re not monsters. That’s something a lot of the fucking idiots here on LW could benefit from, instead of yelling “bigot” while acting like a bigot themselves.
Maga are nazis, so you’re phrasing your agreement like a disagreement, but agreement it remains.
The problem is that said political party is in bed with if not just straight up neo Nazis now. Maybe ten years ago your perspective would be reasonable but it simply isn’t anymore.
But if someone just votes for the other main party to the one I do, who cares?
People who will get hurt by that other party gaining the presidency, or people who care about people getting hurt. Or just people with an ounce of empathy.
None of which seem to apply to you.
What’s the remaining distance between a MAGA and a full-on neo-Nazi in your mind? Like as long as they’re voting for the US equivalent of the NSDAP, they’re not officially there yet?
Insane that anyone can be comfortable writing a strawman like “it’s just a different vote,” when they’re voting for “I need generals like Hitler’s, I will be dictator for a day, it is legal to murder political opponents, we will do mass deportations, Haitians are eating cats.”
💯👌
Libs think there’s a difference between the parties and the Republicans are fascist. Republicans don’t see an actual difference which is where you’re at. Leftists don’t see a difference, but think both sides are fascists. I don’t sit down with fascists, but you do you
You assume my entire political philosophy and views based on the fact I’m civil with people?
For the record, I’m in the UK and would vote Harris in the States.
Frankly, I think I nailed it. You’re comfortable around fascists because you’re supportive of fascists. Harris is a fascist, so is Trump. Without going into your comment history, I’m betting that you support the bombing of gaza. That you might understand that crime is a social construct, but also that criminals should be punished sometimes severely. It’s OK that you think it’s OK to sit down with a fascist. I’m of the opinion that it’s OK to punch them.
Okay, you’re clearly a terminally online person.
Only one of the two candidates is talking about turning the US into a dictatorship with them at the helm.
You’re right. The supreme court has said that the president can’t do anything illegally. What have the democrats done to reverse that? The democrats do the same things as republicans, but they’re more palatable. There’s a lot of people on the left that think Trump is the harm reduction candidate because people are upset when he does things.
you don’t. women have lost their federally protect right to an abortion since trump packed the court the last time, there are more than a million less people alive in the United States today from a mismanaged federal global pandemic response because trump was in the big chair the last time. you don’t get back to normal when fascism wins.
Short answer: I bite back now.
Long answer: My parents are hard-R Republicans. Every time they start getting all “demoncrats r bad” i just ask them, “Why do you want me dead so fucking bad? I know from being raised by you that you fucking hated me growing up, but to vote for “gays should be executed”? This is exactly why you didn’t have grandkids, the thought of putting more of your hate in the world is abhorrent to me…”
I’ve only had to pull that one out twice, so far, but it hits them hard when they still (I’m a few months away from 40) insist I “give them grandkids”.
I’ve known many people to be like this, they just want to slink back, and ignore the blatant. Thank you for having the balls to step up and bite back. People like you are the reason I don’t see almost ANY Trump flags in my neighborhood this year. It’s a cult of personality that nobody else has quite been able to achieve. Once he’s gone for good, things can get back to semi-normal. We still have to be vigilant about the shit Republicans are doing, but at least maybe at that point some family ties will begin to heal.
it hits them hard when they still (I’m a few months away from 40) insist I “give them grandkids”.
They should probably vote for people where you having kids is an option then (not assuming you want them BTW, just pointing out the irrational hatred of lgbtq+ has made all kinds of family options harder).
You can’t go back. This isn’t just a political difference of opinion, this is a full blown violent cult. We need greater funding for mental health and deprogramming services.
This is pretty much what I thought. But I hoped there was maybe something more 🥲
It sucks to make an observation, hate it, be right, do more looking to disprove it because it sucks so much, and keep unavoidably being sucker punched by the same conclusion everywhere you go.
We… don’t? Have you not been watching American news for the last… 9 years? I don’t speak with my family because me being trans is not fully accepted by them. I don’t really want to associate with anyone who is okay with increasing trans suicides via politics. I moved from North Carolina to Oregon to be in a queer friendly state, and I don’t regret it one bit. And I have an appointment to get my passport tomorrow… just in case. I don’t know if this country can be fixed. People talk about getting along with our neighbors or meeting in the middle, but I don’t know how to get along with people who wish I didn’t exist.
And I have an appointment to get my passport tomorrow… just in case.
I wish I could say come to Germany, but things are looking grim over here too :(
I do not know of any not-grim countries right now
an appointment to get my passport
You can’t immigrate to another country with just passport and a smile. So unless you’ve spent the last year applying for immigration visas, you’re staying for a while.
You actually can visit Canada as a US citizen with just a passport. So in an emergency, I could cross over in a rush. But mostly I am worried that Trump will say you can’t change your gender marker on passports. So I’m preempting that with this passport application.
“Getting along with your neighbors” has moved the right more right… and the left… more right. That center isn’t what it used to be.
That and the “we don’t talk about politics” bs… In my head I always think “Why? Because you’re embarrassed of your political beliefs?”
Oh, that’s easy; we don’t! Every four years, the fabric of our society frays and tears a little more, while our politicians either exploit our divisions or attempt to repair them without making any changes to the material conditions or systemic problems that create these fractures, because fixing these underlying issues would upset the handful of billionaires that actually control our government! But there’s a new Fast & Furious movie every two or three years, so it balances out.
because fixing these underlying issues would upset the handful of billionaires that actually control our government
And how exactly are they supposed to do that without a super majority that is impossible with the population continuing to elect MAGA Republicans?
There is no bipartisan possibilities. No one from the right will step across the aisle to make constitutional amendments or impeach corrupt SCOTUS justices or fascist party members. And they’d need 1/3rd of them to do so for the authority to fix anything.
There is no moving on. Nothing can be fixed. Voters should have woken up after Jan 6th, but Republicans still gained seats in the mid term elections.
There is no legal path to fixing this, we can only do our best to bail water and keep them from sinking the ship.
History didn’t start in 2016. The Democrats were happy to cozy up to the Silicone Valley tech giants, even as they developed into monopolies whose products gave users the very brain-poisoning that delivered Trump. They were happy to prioritize Wall Street bailouts over homeowners’ bailouts after the subprime mortgage crises, even if meant their constituents lost their homes. They’ve been happy to sideline or undermine anyone who dares run to their left, from Bernie Sanders to Rashida Tlaib.
The Democrats are not well-meaning, helpless progressives that just can’t get anything done because of America’s byzantine political structure. They have actively stopped any significant changes to the status quo in order to keep their donors happy. They’ve spent decades deluding themselves into thinking they could somehow improve conditions for the working class without demanding concessions from the billionaire class, even as the largest wealth transfer in history, from the lowest income Americans to the highest income Americans, was taking place. They may not be as vile or hateful as the Republicans, but they are just as responsible for America’s decay.
There’s miles of difference between the damage that corporate stooges do versus a literal fascist movement. If this were the 2000s, yeah, I’d be with you all the way, both sides pillaging our futures and all that.
But you’re focused on that asshole stealing your catalytic converter down the street, when you’re actively getting mugged and curb stomped, here and now.
There is a very real possibility of this country descending into fascist dictatorship, and/or huge loss of life from an ensuing Civil War.
Right now, the Dems are at least united like they haven’t been in recent memory because they finally understand what’s at stake. It is absolutely infuriating that you guys are still nitpicking over comparatively trivial stuff compared to cataclysm.
This isn’t hyperbole, this is literally what they have been repeatedly caught expressly trying to accomplish. Yes, it seems like it’s crazy to consider that they might actually achieve their goals. But with everything we know, Trump is still very likely to win this election thanks to people like you who can’t seem to prioritize the violent muggers trying to kill you, over the guy stealing your catalytic converter.
What about my original comment led you to believe I thought they were equivalent? As I said, Republicans are vile, hateful, and exploiting our political divisions for power. But the Democrats are just as responsible for the material conditions that have allowed facism to flourish, and demanding accountability and change for that isn’t nitpicking. If the Democrats don’t stop being corporate stooges, this doesn’t end if Trump is defeated; it ends when another fascist finally wins.
Yup, but they’re all we got at the moment.
Yup. We gotta vote for them this election, but replace them in the next. Otherwise, we’re just hitting snooze on fascism for another 4 years.
Not only that, but if they fix the problems that they used to get your votes, they can’t use them again next election, and we can’t have that so at most you get a pittance of “fixes” while they just blame the other side for blocking it and then the other side does it with a few of their issues. And we’ll keep voting for them too because A) who else? B) the other guy is worse, and C) this time they really will fix everything they continually run on. Any day now…
I’ve ended my relationship with my father, and the one with my mom/step dad is on shaky ground, though they’ve just swapped their vote for Kamala (it took way too much convincing for that to happen though).
Here’s the issue I have with these people, post the 2024 (and truthfully, even the 2020) election.
Reasons to vote for trump at this point in the game:
- They’ve seen what he’s said and the kinds of actions he’s made and his hate/violent rhetoric/attempted coup/felonies/treason with classified documents/overt Fascism/dictator comments/etc/etc/etc, just the fucking worst a US president, hell even a citizen, can do to abuse their power, position, and hurt their fellow Americans in the process; And they’re for it. They support their brand of fascism. Because for some reason they agree with his message and think they’re going to come out aces after the dust settles from WW3
- They’re ignorant to literally every piece of media, news outlets, cable TV, print, tiktok, fucking Joe fucking Rogan shit, and they genuinely don’t understand why voting for trump is bad.
In both of those cases, they are absolutely not to be trusted. I don’t think there’s too many people left in the second use case, but even so, every single one of his supporters is not to be trusted or respected ever again. They’ve shown their true side, and it’s the worst humanity has to offer.
I didn’t realize we had that many pieces of shit living here in America, but we do. So I refuse to associate with them ever again. I will not do business or have any interaction with them again, if I can help it.
They’ve isolated themselves. I will not fall victim to the paradox of intolerance. I refuse to tolerate Nazi’s living in my country. And at this point, everyone who’s voting for trump is a Nazi.
I don’t give a shit if semantically that’s not a PC statement. This is the truth. Downvoting will not change that fact. If you support trump today, you are a fascist that is most closely aligned with the Nazi ideals. I don’t want to hear the excuses, or what someone is “really” supporting trump for. It’s all noise and bullshit to hide the fact that they are deeply disgusting people all the way through who I do not want in my life, or in power making decisions that could affect me or the people I care about.
I don’t know your situation, but turning from family will only harden their resolve and make them more defensive. I went through this with my mom. She voted for Trump in 2020, after years of me telling her how bad he was. I was angry and didn’t talk to her for 2 months. During this time I heard a podcast with David McRaney, about how to talk to QAnon people. It helped me to understand how they got there, and how to help them out of it. It is a process. They operate on an emotional level, and you have to relate to them on emotional level. After that, you question how they arrived at their decisions. Like:
If I asked what your favorite movie is, could you explain why it’s your favorite movie?
Emotionally connecting with them and then thoughtfully questioning their beliefs, in a non-condescending way can be beneficial. It may take days or months, but once the seed of doubt is planted, it can start a dialogue. Remember, these are people we love ❤️, we owe it to ourselves to be compassionate in conversations.
I sincerely appreciate the thoughtfulness of your reply. It sounds like you’re a damn good person, and your mom was worth it as well.
I left out, but probably should have mentioned that even before the trump/MAGA stuff came into their lives, we had a deep divide due to a lot of trauma and issues they inflicted on me during my childhood. Both of my parents are different types of deep narcissists, with deeprooted religious beliefs that untether them from reality (e.g. they admitted they would kill me, my siblings, their grandchildren, etc. if they thought god told them to; that sort of thing). Neither of them gave me anything in life, didn’t pay for anything really (my dad’s child support was spent to keep my mom’s side able to “not work”, without much spent on me or my siblings), my mom chased a sibling around the dinner table with a steak knife trying to stab him (it wasn’t until much later that she’d get medication to help with these episodes), and just generally all the awful normal stuff that happens between divorced parents that deeply, deeply, hate each other and are willing to burn the world down if it meant the other person wouldn’t have a pot to piss in. This unfortunately included putting all of us through tons of abuse, court custody cases, CPS visits, police visits (I’ve had to have my fingerprints done I was 6 because of some serious shit that happened and they needed to isolate the prints that weren’t me or another family members to find the culprit), etc. (like, seriously etc.+1000. I could go on for literal days with all the shit that they put me and my siblings through over the years. Haven’t even scratched the surface).
The trump thing was a very large straw that broke the camel’s back. They were already on thin ice as shitty human beings that refuse to apologize for the damage they did to me and my siblings over the years, and continue to do (I have one of my brother’s living with me right now, because of them).
My relationship with my dad ended after he exploded and physically assaulted me in front of his home. I tried to reconcile and work with him through one of our siblings as a mediator and he flew off the handle again accusing me of disrespecting his authority (which was not just taking everything he tells me as “fact” and “morally correct” since I’m considered an “amoral atheist”…), at which point I cut him out of my life. I just don’t need that shit added to everything else on my plate in life. He was never there for me, my friends were my family.
Anyhow, again, not to detract from your kind and optimistic reply. Anyone else in a different situation, I would encourage to take your advice.
For me though? Hopefully the context I’ve added starts to paint the picture of why that’s a bridge too far. Even if we somehow got through/past all the trump nonsense, we still have all the above, and about 100x that which I just didn’t want to burden a reader with going through all my trauma ;)
It certainly sounds like you made the right choice for you if there is a violent history. Hope for the best for you and your brother.
Always hurts when they believe the TV more than you
They’re ignorant to literally every piece of media, news outlets, cable TV, print, tiktok, fucking Joe fucking Rogan shit, and they genuinely don’t understand why voting for trump is bad.
I think you underestimate both 1) how many news orgs/media spaces/social communities only report on Trump’s successes and democrat scandals and 2) how much of an echo chamber these people live in. Add on a few natural cognitive biases, such as team thinking and discarding evidence contrary to one’s worldview, and you have pretty much the majority of Trump voters at this time.
They are completely immersed in a world where democrats generally are evil and Trump is one of the good guys. Nothing has ever challenged them out of it, because at this point the challenges are just part of the narrative of good vs evil. Whether this changes your conclusions or not, I dunno (dunno whether I think it even should change your conclusion!), but I figure it’s worthwhile giving an accurate depiction of people. Not all malicious and/or super-ignorant, but rather simply cloistered.
you don’t. you believe them when they tell you who they are and remove them from your life.
Or, do what a disturbing number of people have done and make them the centrepiece of your entire life.
Posters all over your house, stickers and flags all over your mobility scooter, hats, T-shirts, the lot.
One of our neighbors had a MAGA collar for their dog…THEIR DOG. Why do they need to drag their DOG into this? He was a good boy. (Was, because the dog passed away from cancer a year or two ago.)
Very easy to hate. But it’s part of the cycle.
It isn’t hate. It’s leaving the evil, cruel, and/or misinformed alone.
It’s not hate to cut horrible people out of your life. You get to pick who you let into your universe. Be picky.
Nah, I cut my parents out of my life entirely due to the racism they have allowed to grow and fester around them in the last few years. I’m completely done with it. Not giving them any reason to think it okay or forgivable.
my dad was spouting trump shit. I don’t know if he was legit or just trying to get a rise out of me, but fuck that. il told him “I don’t associate with trump supporters, so fix that or move on. you raised me better than that, stop drinking Kool aid.”
how could you ever have a normal relationship with your pro-Trump neighbor/father-in-law/Uncle/Barber or what ever again?
…Why would I want to? Seriously, why would I want to have a relationship with people that have shown me that the things they value are antithetical to the things I value? I don’t give a fuck if people are nice to me; I want people to be kind across the board.
There hasn’t been any normal for 8 years plus now. Somewhere between 30 and 45% of the population are openly trying for fascism.
Realistically it’s only a matter of when unless we make some pretty damned sweeping changes which they are going to fight tooth and nail.
We need to unrig the judicial system. We need to unrig the voting system. We need to put guardrails up on media disinformation. And we need to start holding some of these fucking politicians accountable for openly lying in campaign. We need to roll back the dictator privileges they managed to shove in at the last moment for the president. We need to hold some of these oligarchs accountable for crimes.
They should lock Musk up for a month. Go ahead and have him shit himself that he’s not above the law.
I don’t know who the next Republican president will be. But you can bet money there’s going to be plenty of bloodshed once they decide to do whatever they want with complete and total immunity.
You uhh, you don’t.
You don’t.
I haven’t talked to parts of my family the same way I used to. We don’t seek each other out anymore, though some people who do still have connections means we will still see each other for big events like thanksgiving or by happenstance.
Some of them probably think i’m an evil satan worshipping communist based on the last time we argued politics, which was either late 2015 or early to mid 2016, and I was your average slightly socialistic leftist who had just learned about Bernie’s policies for the first time.
With the genocide going on, i feel even more isolated, since I have some family who are harris voters who support israel, and aren’t exactly happy about how vocal I am about palestine. Christian liberal zionism hasn’t been something I could talk people out of.
Well, thats the thing. Once the mask is off it can’t be put back on. My relations have cooled with the Trump supporters I know. At least they stopped putting signs out in the neighborhood.
Yeah. I’ve simply stopped associating with Trump supporters. My life doesn’t have room for that kind of hate, so i cut them out.
I have a lot of empathy for people who have beloved relatives like fathers or brothers that are caught in the mind trap. No one really WANTS to cut ties with kin.
My last remaining ties with them are my parents. I know they’re not hateful people - they raised me to be a loving person. Their brainwashing has taken the form of simply not trusting legitimate news sources, which is the hardest kind to overcome.
How do you reason with someone who doesn’t trust any sources of information?
