A recent event led me to fact check something that I thought must be untrue, which is that Ukraine conscripts people into the military against their will, including making those people that had previously fulfilled their obligations return to the battlefield.
Moreso, when browsing X recently I saw bunch of videos being posted of what claimed were police forcing people into vans to go fight in Ukraine. The police were beating these people in the process. Now, it is possible that some of this content is propaganda, but I did want to find out if Ukraine forces conscription.
It appears that it is true:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Ukraine
I am very much against conscription. I still support Ukraine’s independence, but the fact that they are forcing people to fight through beatings, arrests, etc. is sickening to me and makes me lose respect for Zelensky. According to an estimate by Ukrainian commanders, 50% to 70% of Ukrainian conscripts are killed or wounded in their first few days in combat on some areas of the front.
What are others thoughts on this?
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So you equally oppose the brutal conscription efforts of Ukraine’s invader and occupier, Russia? Since you didn’t mention it?
This is the correct response to OP’s transparently bad-faith question.
Yeah, I’m not a fan of conscription. I’ve seen Ukrainian loved ones reckon with the difficulty of the need for a self-defense force while the rest of the world sits on its hands. I’m happy to discuss it, as long as it’s an honest discussion about conscription and not purely Ukrainian conscription?
I am very much against conscription.
Did I say I am only against Ukrainian conscription? No I did not.
Fair enough.
But are you aware that Russia has had multiple rounds of conscription? Have you considered that many of Russia’s hundreds of thousands of dead soldiers were not properly supplied and used cynically as cannon fodder against Ukraine - and were therefore obviously deployed under some form of duress? Either as prison convicts or press-ganged off the street in poor remote parts of the Russian Federation that nobody in Moscow cares about.
Let’s remind ourselves who is the aggressor here, and who is responsible for the vast majority of the war crimes in this pointless war that could end tomorrow if Russia called off its illegal invasion.
In the light of all this, why would you be so concerned about the aggressed party’s respect for legal procedures as defined under its own laws?
Perhaps it’s time you stopped watching this “bunch of videos” and starting getting your information from reputable sources instead.
But are you aware that Russia has had multiple rounds of conscription? Have you considered that many of Russia’s hundreds of thousands of dead soldiers were not properly supplied and used cynically as cannon fodder against Ukraine - and were therefore obviously deployed under some form of duress? Either as prison convicts or press-ganged off the street in poor remote parts of the Russian Federation that nobody in Moscow cares about.
Yes, am I’m not okay with that either. I’m not okay with conscription in Russia, Israel, South Korea, Ukraine or anywhere. I find it odd that I say I’m not okay with conscription, and you and many others chime in with things like… “Did you know Russia has conscription?” Do you think Ukraine should be more like the authoritarian dictatorship in Russia, is that what you’re trying to say?
Let’s remind ourselves who is the aggressor here, and who is responsible for the vast majority of the war crimes in this pointless war that could end tomorrow if Russia called off its illegal invasion.
I agree with this, but it is a bit beside the point in regards to conscription. Russia should call of its illegal invasion, but Ukraine should also not be involved in forcing people to go to war against their will else get kidnapped/beat/jailed or worse.
In the light of all this, why would you be so concerned about the aggressed party’s respect for legal procedures as defined under its own laws?
Prob because forcing people to war through kidnappings/beatings/jailing/etc is human rights violations IMO and one wrong doesn’t justify another. Have you read about internment camps in the US before? Do you think those were justified cause Japan was the aggressor?
Perhaps it’s time you stopped watching this “bunch of videos” and starting getting your information from reputable sources instead.
I already explained I assumed some of them could be propaganda, but I did additional research & posted 2 links that include plenty of additional reliable sources. Are you suggesting now that PBS is not a reputable source? Or that Ukraine doesn’t do conscription? It turns out many of those things in the videos actually DO happen. I assumed they were propaganda, but it turns out that this is really happening.
It’s no secret that Ukraine has conscription. It’s a country at war, because it’s been invaded. Wartime rules therefore apply. This is also why the election has been postponed, automatically and legally. Historically, many countries have had peacetime conscription. The UK had it until the 1960s for example, France’s until the late 90s.
Ukraine had conscription for only for 27-and-overs until recently. It’s now 25.
None of this is a secret.
Since you seem especially concerned about the moral aspects of the subject, and cite scandalous abuses, the question is unavoidable: why you are so exercised by Ukraine’s situation when Russia is far, far, far worse on all these fronts? It’s odd.
Since you seem especially concerned about the moral aspects of the subject, and cite scandalous abuses, the question is unavoidable: why you are so exercised by Ukraine’s situation when Russia is far, far, far worse on all these fronts? It’s odd.
Ukraine is supposed to be the democracy. Forced conscription is not something that I believe democracies engage in. What if Ukraine started requiring women to have one baby a year, and if they refused, they force bred them. Would you be okay with that?
Why focus on the country that is defending itself and thus using conscription as a necessary evil, instead of the aggressor using conscription to go kill innocent people? For pure conquest by an insecure little bald man. One seems closer to an evil necessity, the other just like evil, at least to me.
I bring up conscription because I’m opposed to it, that is why. That includes Russia doing it, but Ukraine is supposed to be the democracy not the dictatorship. I’m not going to look at this & think to myself, well Russia is worse so even if Ukraine started force-breeding women to create more future soldiers then it is okay cause Russia is bad. I can understand Putin is a fascist dictator, but Ukraine forcing people to war through kidnapping/beating/jail/etc. is not good either.
In World War II Europe and the US were democracies that relied on conscription to save democracy and defeat dictatorships.
And they were still bad for doing that.
Why are you trying to make this about russia when its not relevant for the question? Just because there is someone worse doesnt excuse the lesser evil. And it certainly should not stop us from viewing them objectively/critically.
When someone beats their kid you wouldnt say “but they got raped by their parents thats much worse”.
Btw Im not saying Ukraine is to blame here, I havent done research into this particular topic, just saying we shouldnt dismiss info just because theres an aggressor doing worse shit.I am very much against conscription.
I still support Ukraine’s independence
I think Putin is fascist dictator. I literally said I am very much against conscription & I still support Ukraine’s independence, but yet here you are ignoring it like an unprogrammed NPC that can’t imagine being critical of an action by Ukraine without someone being a Putin apologist. Let me be clear again since me claiming to be against conscription wasn’t enough for you. I am against conscription in Ukraine, Russia, Israel, South Korea & anywhere that does it. It almost always leads to more fascism & not less.
It is highly unpopular here to criticize Ukraine, and people kinda have good reasons for it, with all the far-right/trolls/tankies praising Russia and undermining Ukraine support.
Still, and though I support Ukrainians in a war made by Russia, conscription (it’s always forced btw) is something I can’t get over with, it goes against liberty, equality, solidarity, everything i believe in. Fuck armies, anywhere, anywhen, anyhow. It does not mean that they should be unfunded/unsupported/fought against, just that we have to remember that they are bad to the core, and that even when necessary, they should not get any glory, any power or any reward.
“Despise the infamous glory of laurel-bearing heroes, all assassins and pirates who terrorized the whole world”. - La Paysanne, Gaston Couté
Anyway, i hope for peace in Ukraine, that they will get their previous frontiers, and that violences will soon come to an end, so that forced soldiers on both sides and Ukrainian civilians can escape this hell.
For a post that sparks good answers that I’m happy to see, I’m sad to see the post itself have so many down votes.
Anything that can be seen as anti Ukraine is going to generate a lot of down votes in liberal/right wing instances.
Including very real ethical questions that just use Ukraine as an example.
Very much against conscription. If the country is worth dying for, people will volunteer. Otherwise, it is cruel and unfair to force people to suffer for a country they didn’t choose to be born in.
To clarify for the commenters who seem to think anti conscription = pro Russia, no, Russia is an authoritarian dictatorship, and conscription is unethical in all countries. Democratic countries should model the moral behaviour.
I’m pro national service - whether that takes the form of mail delivery, community work, fire service, environmental remediation (!!) there’s a shitton of work to be done, give kids free education and get them enrolled for services and benefits and skim off the best for leadership. Or, military or federal security service. There’s a ton of different ways for people to serve their country and we should accommodate all who are willing to step up.
You know, I can fuck with this to an extent.
I think folks should always have the right to refuse, but I think some sort of national service obligation in exchange for education assistance could be beneficial.
In the US, there is currently a federal loan program for college students, where the government fronts some or all of the cost to attend college and you pay it back later. The government also has debt forgiveness programs if you later go to work for a non-profit or public office and make consistent repayments for a number of years, but that is unreliable, requires a set number of conditions to be met, and usually takes a long time.
The US military has programs where they will pay for all of your college education if you enlist, but not everyone is comfortable going into the military and that comes with its own obvious risks.
In lieu of the loan system, if there was a similar program for agreeing to work as a public servant for X number of years in exchange for free school, it could be appealing. It would be a decent resume builder for participants to have a stable job and income during their period of service after they finish school while they have time to look for a long-term career once their service is finished, and they wouldn’t have to stress about trying to land a forgiveness-qualifying job that they need to stay at for 10 years or more while also never missing a payment on their interest-accruing loan.
I think folks should always have the right to refuse,
mos def. the trick is to make it fun and part of the transition to adulthood, so they want to serve.
In lieu of the loan system, if there was a similar program for agreeing to work as a public servant for X number of years in exchange for free school, it could be appealing.
in addition to schooling, give them access to home loans too. make it possible for people to own houses again.
crazy dreams right?
Shit I’d do a lot worse for a house.
clear firebreaks or hunt invasive species in order to get the gi-bill equiv? fuck yeah…
I am against conscripts.
We must always be highly critical of those with power, money, and influence; especially governments and politicians (and the oligarchs that control/sway them).
I have known about those videos being posted on twitter.
I shared some of them last year, it is great that people are escaping the echo cambers we created for ourselves!
