What does someone have to do that means no amount of remorse or effort to fix things will get you to forgive them? I don’t mean forgive and forget to the point where they can hurt you again. If someone repeatedly steals from you, forgiveness doesn’t mean putting them in a position where they can steal again.
I’m asking this purely out of curiosity. I’m just wondering what the attitude in my corner of the internet is.
For me, it’s really just a lack of actual remorse or effort to fix things. As long as they’re willing to demonstrate they recognize what they did and will work to be better (and it’s not a recurring pattern), we’re cool.
I think generally the same but there are extreme cases like murder where a person can atone all they want but shouldn’t necessarily be granted forgiveness.
To me it kinda have to depend on what kind of murder. Accidentally killed someone in self defence or as a victim of abuse? Yeah it can be forgiven. Going out of their way to kill someone or doing something that’s dangerous that result in killing someone? That’s unforgivable.
I hereby declare all of those unpremeditated types of murder should henceforth be referred to as “oopsies”.
Murder makes it sound so intentional in my mind.
The legal term for a lethal ‘oopsie’ is manslaughter I’m pretty sure.
Ive always found it a little strange that the law and insurance companies and human society in general is hyperfocused with finding a scapegoat to blame and persecute. People die sometimes just because of shit happening outside of anyone’s control but we’ve gotta dig for someone to pin blame on. Someones parachute didn’t work right that day? Its the parachute makers or the safety inspectors or the airplane owners who are to blame and not random unavoidable small chance of statistical failure rates. Gotta sue sue sue!
Probably dishonesty. Coworker threw away thousands of dollars worth of my department’s equipment and then lied to me about it. I know she was just repeating her boss, but she knew it was a lie. I’ll hold a grudge against both of those bitches forever!
Two former friends hit on my husband - not just flirty, pretty seriously with an expectation of more. They’re both out forever!
If they go out of their way to hurt you, or are so indifferent about you that they hurt you in the process of doing something else and decide they don’t care.
People who value you and your feelings so little that they would do either are not worth keeping around, and certainly aren’t worth your effort emotionally to be able to forgive
Totally agree on this - I have forgiven a lot of shit in my life but the one thing that has truly hurt me is when someone I cared about was offended by my methods of expressing concern to them about their behavior, and they retaliated by trying to get my partner to leave me.
Despite the fact that it was a laughable attempt, the intention to actually hurt me, not just accidental toe-stepping or expression of frustration, is what drew a line for me.
I will forgive unintentional damage followed by remorse, I will forgive outbursts and emotional interaction, but actively trying to hurt someone is the behavior of an adversary.
When criticism of the act gets enough likes on Lemmy and/or Reddit—that’s when I know what to think.
The only time something would become unforgivable is if it were done with intentional malice or becomes a pattern of behavior. I’m willing to forgive quiet a bit, if the harm an action caused was not the intent. When it becomes the intent, such as physical violence or repeated trauma, that’s where I take a hard line and will not forgive. For less spectacular transgressions, repeat events are where things become unforgivable. I am willing to give grace on that more because I’m bad about not communicating to others how their actions hurt me, but if we’ve talked about how their behavior is a problem and they keep doing it? No sorry, we’re done.
I’m really glad you at least partially qualified what you mean by forgiveness. Or at least what you do not mean by it. The type of forgiveness I think you’re trying to suggest is more of an internal process. It’s not really about the other person at all. For example, there are some family members of murder victims who say they have forgiven the killer. They are not saying the killer deserves to go free. They’re just saying they don’t want to carry that hatred through the rest of their lives. By that definition, I don’t think any of us know what we might be able to let go of.
Things that betray trust are very hard for me to let go. Theft, backstabbing, lies, etc. If I can’t trust you, I can’t hang out with you.
I can forgive mistakes and bad judgment, but if you intentionally do something that makes me lose trust and respect, it’s going to be hard to earn that back. If you lie to me, for example, I don’t see it as a one-time action - it reveals something about the kind of person you are. Saying you won’t do it again doesn’t mean much after you’ve already shown it’s something you’ve been doing up to this point.
I don’t believe in free will, so when I see someone act this way, I don’t even really blame them. I don’t see it as a conscious decision, but more as a behavior they’re helplessly repeating. And people rarely change that kind of behavior unless the motivation comes from within - not from outside pressure.
I don’t believe in free will, so when I see someone act this way, I don’t even really blame them. I don’t see it as a conscious decision, but more as a behavior they’re helplessly repeating. And people rarely change that kind of behavior unless the motivation comes from within - not from outside pressure.
That’s an interesting angle. But without free will, wouldn’t it be that they could never change the behavior unless it was already preordained?
I don’t believe people can choose to change their behavior in the way we usually think. But I do believe they can be influenced to change - by new information or experiences.
Take this example: if we suddenly discovered that tomatoes are toxic, I wouldn’t say I’m actively choosing to stop eating them. What’s really happening is that my understanding of the world has changed so much that I automatically no longer want to eat them. It’s not about freedom of choice - it’s more like being compelled by truth. I didn’t decide to change; the change happened to me because of what I learned.
If people are truly sorry and have taken steps to make sure that what they did will never happen again, they are eligible for forgiveness of anything.
Nothing.
I could cut ties with a person over the most trivial of things, but as a consequentialist I would be betraying logic by labelling somebody as unforgiveable.
That is not to say that I would ever let a person go without consequences, far from it.
Hmmmm probably a lot of things, but first to mind is animal cruelty
What counts as animal cruelty?
Forgiveness is always possible, although if someone hits me with DARVO, I’m going to forever filter their behavior through a check before helping them. It’s sorta amazing what we can go through and forgive after, but I guess the misnomer is that the apology is for them and not ourselves.
It’s not about “forgiveness”, it’s about whether the mistakes can be undone.
Consider you accidentally insult somebody. That can be undone by apologizing.
What if you murder somebody? That can never be undone.
People do occasionally forgive murderers.
Not the victims, admittedly, but their families sometimes.
deleted by creator
An apology doesn’t undo what you said any more than it brings someone back to life.
I’ve forgiven way too much to people than I should ever have in the first place and I allowed them to get away with too much than they ever should.
To me, someone or something becomes unforgivable, when you’ve presented them perfect opportunities or chances to make up for their fuck up. Continual and repetitious fuck ups, really sets in stone how not-so-apologetic someone is that has made the mistakes. Because in come the excuses, in come the sob stories, in come the laundry list of reasons .etc
It becomes too much, especially if someone fucks something up for you or someone else in a colossal way. These days, if you want to be sorry for something, you don’t fucking do it again. That’s all and it depends on what it is.
Intentionally did something dangerous that you know will get people hurt with a slightest mistake. Like driving recklessly, or pushing others in a huge crowd. There’s no amount of sorry will make me believe you’re remorseful, you’re only sorry because stuff that will happen happened.
Ohh and embezzlement of public fund. Fuck off with that crocodile tear.
